Protecting our Children, Part 2

[Lilka]

Thought I'd start a new thread because the other one was so big

Anyone else going to be watching?

I thought that both couples seen so far had a lot in common. It is a cycle of deprivation, Mike, Tiffany,Shaun and Marva had not had the secure, emotionally stable upbringing that you would wish for a child and they were unable to provide it themselves-however much they wished it.

Marva got the sort of support that I felt Tiffany needed, but still failed. They were both with unsuitable men and either couldn't keep away; or would most probably find another unsuitable one.

I don't know the answer-it sounds horribly harsh to say that you can only break the cycle by removing the child-but it is probably the best way for the child.

The whole thing is very sad-especially when you realise that there are many, many more similar cases.

I felt from the outset, that they would not be able to keep this child, as there never seemed to be a desire to turn their lives around.

They needed huge amounts of help, and it's possibly too late for them, and they will never be able to keep a child. They had my sympathies though, both of them, not just Marva.

"Financial costs should never factor in decision making."

Sure - but we're not in an ideal world and they are a factor. And society has to choose how best it allocates scarce resources and frankly it wouldn't be cheap to fund Shaun and Marva in childcare.

"Ethically the law has been written the best it can be"
The law is written as it is, as it exists today - it doesn't mean it's the best it can be. I'm quite sure we will change the law over time to improve it - that's progress.

Child protection will undoubtedly change over time too and maybe documentaries like these can play a significant part in helping people see the damage that can be done to children and the possibilities for preventing that.

On last weeks thread there was comments about somebody like the foster carer on this weeks helping tiffany and her son , well it shows that this service is there but still doesnt work sometimes

The current system is a much better one. Rather than adoption, special guardianship is used by long term foster carers for older children.

Most children are placed within the birth family.

The whole system (in some LA's) of "direct work" with children placed on any "plan" teaches life skills and self esteem,this used to be non-exsistant.

Contraception and sexual behaviour goes hand in hand with self esteem, i don't think that you can single out one group above another.

For the parents the practical courses that are run, have sessions on all sexua health matters, it depends on whether it is taken onboard.

Financial costs have meant that lots of services don't exist anymore. DV services are cut locally and there's a waiting list for drug & alcohol.
As someone mentioned up thread suicide doesn't guarantee psychiatric in patient

Green- the law is updated yearly in all respects, LA guidelines are continually updated

Child protection changes around every three months, not dramatically but changes are continually made.

The way that the law is written dictates whether finances are a factor and they cannot be. There are duties put onto the LA via the law when it comes to CP and CIN/LAC.

The services for children and their families on "plans" are there, just not for the general public.

Financial costs should never factor in decision making.

Sadly there is no choice-money has to come into it-there isn't a bottomless purse. No one is going to want to -or even afford to-pay the sort of taxes that would give the best social care. It is our money-there is no 'they'.

I have sympathy for Shaun as in for his whole life path, what brought him to the point he was at in the programme but generally I have little sympathy for anyone who is violent towards women and it was made clear that domestic violence was an issue.

You only have to see Shaun's scars to know that the self harming must have come from a lot of psychological pain. It would have probably have been better for him to have been adopted at birth.

Finacial costs are never applied in individual cases, this is what Green was suggesting should be the case.

Whether the child is adopted or services put in place for the family, costs are high, so when it comes to individual decision making that isn't what the judgement is based on.

The general public don't realise what family breakdown costs.

Re the comments about Shaun being in the FC placement- That was not what I suggested at all, I said that I think he would've shown more improvement than Marva had with that level of support I know a FC placement where the FC has their own DCs would not be workable.

You guys who have sympathy for Shaun on the telly - if you met him I honestly think you would be terrified of him

No I wouldnt be, I know people like Shaun, I live among people like him, I went to school with people who have turned out like him. I see them on the way to school with my son and I see them when I go to the high street shops. I have never been terrified. I feel empathy.

Do you think that the current approach to the children will reduce the number of young adults leaving the care system with no concept of family life?

Do you think that EVERY girl in care / foster care / been involved in care proceedings should be offered long term contraception (implant / coil) so that she has a chance to grow up before becoming a parent?

Careleavers still have very poor stats in terms of mental health, criminality, alcohol abuse, poor educational achievements, early parenthood, addiction, sex working, SS involvement as parents, long term unemployment etc. We haven't made a huge difference to that. However the will is there, the law is there, and the service is there. Prior to the Leaving Care Act in 2000 there was no legal duty to support careleavers post 16 in any respect, so it is a recent improvement. We still can't heal the damage done by these peoples' life experiences though :(

LARC (long acting reversible contraception) is very much promoted to our young women and pregnancy prevention work is done with both young men and women. We have a nurse who can do jabs and implants and can get them referred for mirena if they want it. We do our best. This isn't social engineering, it is trying to protect our girls from themselves as so many would end up in CP/Care proceedings. Not to say that lots of our young people don't become young but very good parents, they do.

I feel so sad for all the parents featured. All of them are damaged adults and have very sad lives. Poor Marva was so young. I have a 19yo on my caseload pg with her third, first two removed. She will keep trying until she gets to keep one :(

I would have found Shaun very intimidating, especially with his dog. However I bet that he was the most appealing baby and toddler-it is so sad that things go so wrong for these children-and from bad to worse as adults.

If i was in dailiy contact with shaun i would be intimidated by him even if i lived amongst people like him which i do to an extent im still wary , however as a woman its women like him im more intimidated by , men tend to turn on men unless of course its their wives girlfriends who they will happiliy beat ,

Prior to the Leaving Care Act in 2000 there was no legal duty to support careleavers post 16 in any respect, so it is a recent improvement

There may not have been a legal duty but there was certainly support in place much prior to 2000.

Stereotype much?

Sorry, not you AL.

Actually, I left care in 1999, and there was very little in terms of support - I had to fight hard for it, and half way through uni it disappeared. My siblings (one older, one younger) had even worse experiences.

the sterotype comment was that aimed at me ?

I think for someone like Marva, drinking is a form of repeated self annihilation/checking out in the same way that the ODing habit was. I think her fatal attraction to Shaun can be seen in the same light - she is hooked on everything that is guaranteed to destroy her. She was adrift and incapable of even thinking of her own best interests, let alone the best interests of a baby. I agree with Tiktok that Marva signalled her incapacity, that she is not able to articulate verbally how lost she is, and that she had her actions speak for her.

The best decision was made for the sake of the baby.

Realistically, I do not see how SWs can hope to fundamentally change someone's relationship with themselves and their own life, and try to teach a decision making process that runs counter to every single instinct a person has revealed in the short time frame that is available before damage is done to a baby or small child. Everything Marva did with the exception of staying on the wagon for several weeks while pregnant pointed to the fact that she was not really on her own radar at all, never mind the baby.

yes

'I drank throughout all my pg and am drinking right now with no.3'

Bit of a tangent but why, Starlight?

I have known men and women like shaun aggressive violent unpredictible, paranoid and defensive and ime its the women who would lamp a woman they didnt know ,iThe men are usually a bit more reserved in their aggresion and wouldnt hit out at a strange woman and yes they do beat their partners , domestic violence isnt rare amongst people like marva and shaun ,