Protecting our Children, Part 2

[Lilka]

Thought I'd start a new thread because the other one was so big

Anyone else going to be watching?

We have no idea of what services were offered to Marva - we were told that they refused to engage with services before. We don't know that she had no alternative but to go back to him.

But if they had let her try again and she took such a young baby round to Sean again and they had both been drunk, and he had done something when out of control ........ however heartbreaking it is to watch, I understand that they just can't risk it. They probably didn't show what happened to Marva because it is really about the children, but with DV issues, maybe she was offered another place.

Why would marva be given another chance to prove herself? She took her baby into direct danger. She already did prove herself, unfortunately to be unable to protect her child.

and.

it is wrong to assume that they took the baby, turfed her out, applied to the court for the baby to be adopted and then gave up on her.

Much more likely is that they tried to keep channels open for contact (which clearly the couple ignored) and would have had to have involved courts and a judge to make a decision about the adoption which te parents (or at least the mother) would have been supported through and so on.

Desperately sad.

I was impressed by the professionals, especially that lovely FC.

I'm not saying she should have got the same chance again - of course the baby's welfare comes first and that's why Annie was right to say Marva could no longer be trusted to come and go with the baby as she pleased from the foster carer's. She had to only see the baby in the foster carer's house. She could have had contact in that way, over a period of time, and shown if she was able to gradually be given more trust. The point is that by being black and white and separating them in the way that they did at the end, without support, it's not surprising that she went back to Shaun's and the whole thing fell apart.

If she had been kicked out and then attempted suicide that evening, for example (a real possibility given her history of overdoses) would you not agree that social services should have ensured she was given support? She is clearly a vulnerable adult and I think efforts should have been made to get her into supported accommodation/ any accommodation away from Shaun on that first night. Doesn't seem to have happened. She must have been feeling so desperate, guilty and vulnerable at that point (first person she rang when she woke up was Annie after all) and anything could have happened.

And great though Annie was - what happened at the end shows exactly why there are supposed to be separate and independent SWs for babies and parents. Marva needed support here when separation happened, and she didn't get it.

There are thousands and thousands of vulnerable people like Marva and Shaun. If they won't engage with SS, there's nothing anyone can do.

Plus with the cuts happening as they are, the money is focused on the sharp end - which is the children. Have a word with the ConDems :(

The baby was seriously put at risk when Marva took him to Shauns - both parents drunk and incapable, baby hadn't been fed for hours, Shaun's history of violence etc etc.
No way should there be a 'second chance'.
Sorry as we might feel for the parents - and I really do - this is about child safeguarding. The child's needs must come first.

Keep thinking about this.

I supported a girl in very similar circumstances to Marva , she had 2 babies removed (long story short)
I agree more help should be offered to people like Marva but how much can you give? There isn't the money and resources to help her long term unless she really wants to change, and unfortunately the one constant she has in her life is Shaun, so more than likely that's where she'll keep on going back to

Think the end decision was the best for baby. Hope he has a happy life.

Unfortunatly this ended exactly as I thought it would, I've met similar couples to Martha and Sean who also have a fatal, destructive attachment to each other, they function together haphazardly in their own version of normality, and tend to bounce from one catastrophe to another.Usually the only thing that breaks this attachment is the death of one of them.Martha is only a young women and this is the only lifestle she has known.There are no friends or relations to guide/support her, so she clings to Sean.Sadly their children are the casualties of this tragic partnership. I wish I'd been proved wrong

Patti, I was going to mention the political era. Those two are on benefits (when they remember ti sign on) Can anyone REALLY see them getting jobs any time soon. Should we call the lazy scroungers taking our tax?

Meant to say, you can give Marva supported accommodation/any accommodation but it's likely she will keep returning to Shaun.

He still had a hold on her when she'd been away from him for weeks.

I'm not saying it was Annie's fault, Oliverreed. Annie was responsible for the baby's welfare and that was her focus. She was dedicated and did an excellent job. I am saying that other parts of the system let Marva down when she needed them most.

And you are wrong to say that 'a social worker's primary responsibility is to the child.' No, THIS social worker's primary responsibility was to the child. She was the child's social worker. But there is supposed to be a separate social worker for the mother - where was s/he??? The point is that Marva should also have had separate and independent support herself when they were separated (and in fact should have had this throughout the process - we could see this was not the case earlier in the programme).

I don't think you can tar both these parents with the same brush and say that they were doomed to failure whatever support they were given. Marva did remarkably well for 12/ 13 weeks. Yes she f**ked up here and so the current plan could not continue but it is a real shame she was left with no real choice but to go back to Shaun.

For anyone who has Sky or is in Scotland, this prog's on BBC2 Scotland at 11.20 tonight. I missed it at 9 but will watch/record later.

No I can't Starlight :( Fucking depressing. I knew I shouldn't have watched it

totally agree mumofmonsters. I have seen this so many times unfortunately. one too many 'cry for help' overdoses coupled with alcohol. I feel in my heart of hearts Marva will be the one. She was strangely 'silent' throughout this programme.

Anna, but you are assuming that marva didn't have that support? More likely she did but refused it. She did have separate legal support- which I doubt she would have arranged herself?

londonmother, Marva 'should' have had independent support - I would be extremely surprised if this had not been offered, she had been known to social services since she was 10 years old and took her first overdose. I recall from the programme that she had not engaged with mental health services (?). She was not 'sectionable' - what then can be done? Offer her her own accommodation perhaps? She would have moved Shaun in - pessimistic view perhaps but in my experience, entirely possible.
You say she did well for 12-13 weeks. For most of that time she received 24 hour care and support. It is totally unrealistic to expect that level of support could have continued indefinitely. Where do you draw the line?
Marva will have been offered/had a solicitor after this to give her advice and the baby would have had it's own guardian ad litem.

A lot of local authorities would not have given this couple a chance - it was a high risk case and unfortunately it did not work out.

The couple appeared to live in a council property so they must have had some engagment with someone to get it.

Arther found them in a tent. It has clearly stuck with him. She was pg then so someone got them housed.

Such sad lives.

It wasn't on in Scotland at 9pm, is about to start now. Anyone else watching it now?

Actually I felt more sorry for him than for her, which I realise is probably an inaccurate assessment of the situation.

I'm watching it now, Charlotte.

Am hugely impressed with Annie's calm and focus while the pantomine with the dog is going on.

To all those wondering if Marva and last weeks Tiffany could have coped if they had more support. Maybe they could at first. But does anyone think either of these women would do a good job of rearing an older child? Especially one which may have special needs due to genetics or pre or post natal environment - a distinct possibility with both babies and Toby.

Would either of these women be able to engage with schools and local authorities to get the children any help they needed? Would they have the mental and emotional strength to deal with a tantruming toddler or an angry teenager? Would they always be able to stay out of the way of unsuitable men who are a risk to their children?

In many ways a baby is easy to look after. But in time it will become a teenager. I doubt Tiffany or Marva will ever be capable of raising a child to be a functioning adult in society. How could they when they can't function in society themselves? It is sad & not their fault but thats the way it is and the SW should not sacrifice a babies future to save the mother pain.

Justonemore, I think it's because he showed emotion and spark, she just looked out of it and very quiet. He clearly was jn a lot of pain