Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Telly addicts

protecting our children

982 replies

thekidsrule · 30/01/2012 20:59

carry on please

OP posts:
ranteetheranter · 31/01/2012 18:39

I feel for Tiffany. She didn't get the love care and support she needed in childhood. I feel bad for her but that does not mean its ok to sign her children up for the same fate. Actually I feel bad for mike too. I don't think he is evil just incapable and all children deserve better than what Toby was getting. All children.

ReallyTired · 31/01/2012 18:45

Tiffany and Mike are damaged rather than evil. They are incapable of the practical side of parenting.

Sometimes its necessary to put the sob stories aside and think what is best for the CHILDREN.

I think Toby is better off being looked after by the state than his parents. Just look at the progress he has made. Its sad that its unlikely he will be adopted.

mathanxiety · 31/01/2012 18:46

I know a couple who adopted sisters who were older than Toby and whose home background was dreadful. They are finding out even more than the social workers who were involved had discovered as the older child has started to trust them. She reveals bits and pieces very casually and it is horrifying.

It is not outside the bounds of possibility that Toby will be adopted.

It is not outside the bounds of possibility that the very volatile and out of his depth dad felt very out of his depth from the start with Toby and that what this couple was willing to show on camera was for them their best behaviour, volatility and all.

Very sound decision imo to remove the children and hats off to Tiffany for her sense. She can be helped if she asks for help at this point and meantime her children will not be hurt or at least will have a chance of a better future as she gets her life together.

Maryz · 31/01/2012 18:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LineRunner · 31/01/2012 19:00

I do know someone who adopted a very damaged child of 5 years old, and I have another friend who obtained guardianship of a neglected and abused 3 year old grandchild.

Both children are now in secondary schools and are doing really well. They will get GSCEs and go to college. They are articulate and sociable.

I know that these children will always have their memories and their problems, their anger and their issues, but they are loved and they have a cycle-breaking future. And to be honest, when my (1st) friend me tells my about a teenage outburst from her [adopted] child, it sounds little different to the outburts from my own two.

I would hate her to think that people believe she somehow 'took' a child from a victim. She adopted a child who was in need of a home where there was love, warnth, interaction and a lack of physical abuse. I think did a marvellous thing. I think she made a massive difference.

ReallyTired · 31/01/2012 19:01

Sad to say MLD special schools are full of Tobys.

I think that Toby has a good chance of finding long term foster carers. Hopefully he is still quite mallible when it comes to learning good behaviour.

Lets hope the film will result in suitable adopters coming forward for him.

willowthecat · 31/01/2012 19:10

I think you are right Maryz - a foster family who are committed to helping Toby would have little incentive to adopt as they would not then get the support that they got as the fosterers of an SN child All children can improve and reach their own potential whether they are SN or NT so it's best to give him and his carers the best package of support available. No one can really predict whether he will go on to develop speech or not, but if not then it's best he is in a setting that can cope with that reality.

bossboggle · 31/01/2012 19:18

After watching this I did not know whether to laugh or cry!! I am so grateful that by the grace of God I had the most amazing mum who sadly never lived long enough to see my children who taught me things I didn't even know she was teaching me. I have got an amazing fantastic supportive husband and a DD with special needs who has had all the love and attention growing up that we can give her. We also have other children who are now grown up too. This thing has got a lot of people talking very very quickly indeed!! Be grateful for what you have all you MN's out there!! Also question.... Did I see a laptop/notebook in the kitchen area of their house or was I imagining things??? Answers please.

LikeAnAdventCandleButNotQuite · 31/01/2012 19:18

Watching on catchup now....

First family - son has no bed, parents have a laptop. It's just wrong.

bossboggle · 31/01/2012 19:21

Yep tend to agree, they're not evil they're just damaged by their upbringing - or lack of it!! Sadly being involved with a primary school we see all too much of it, not quite as drastic as this but you can soon tell if a child has any adult input at home and if they don't then by the time they are in the juniors the gap in the educational levels are like a chasm and they are unlikely to catch up!!

exoticfruits · 31/01/2012 19:25

The parents are just as much victims. I would bet if we had a film of either parents childhood we could sit and weep at the way they were treated. Toby would quite probably grow up just like his Dad, without intervention.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 31/01/2012 19:32

well wasn't that always the thing with the baby p case, really? that for all the screaming and monstering, his parents had had shit upbringings and had he lived he would likely have gone on to become someone else's shit parent.

man, though, it absolutely is an IMPOSSIBLE situation... it sounds awful (it IS awful) but this is what happens when you don't have a war/famine/plague for for sixty years.

soverylucky · 31/01/2012 19:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 31/01/2012 19:33

btw i said something similar to a bunch of social worker/child psychologist chums at the weekend... i could tell they thougth i'd been reading the daily mail by the way their eyes bugged out. Grin i should be clear that i am not advocating the horsemen of the apocalypse as a solution.

exoticfruits · 31/01/2012 19:35

At some point the innocent, abused DC crosses a line to the abuser. It is so sad and social workers can't just wave the magic wand and sort it.

mumblecrumble · 31/01/2012 20:23

Scared me that parents were probably being best they could for the cameras. Don;t usualy cry at stuff like this (one born every minute, other docs etc) but really touched me, as it has many of us.

I think it waws when the dad came in and had more affection for the dog. I feel very lucky having my parents and very lucky hsve my husband.

Social workers have an impossible job and I presume we didn't see all the facets of that case.

Hope Toby is now with someone who is showing him love :) Wish we had the strength, finiances, etc etc to adopt or foster.

ledkr · 31/01/2012 20:33

The trouble is really that the front line workers often see the concerns but find it difficult to get the people above to act as quickly as they should do,that is when i believe the damage is done. The problem is that if sw act to quickly they are criticised. The thresh holds for cp vary from authority to authority as well.I know children that still live in the same squallor but havent been removed as yet.Its very depressing.

ledkr · 31/01/2012 20:43

maryz That shouldnt be the case,an adopted child and their family are legally entitled to support. I specifically work in adoption support and we are obliged to provide support and make this very clear at the time of adoption.
If you know a family who needs support tell them to contact the local adoption support team or the ss help desk.

dontlaugh · 31/01/2012 21:00

I have been thinking about this case during the day - imagine being a SW involved in it. When the NQ SW said it was getting into her dreams I thought she was exaggerating but having read this thread a few times i can see this case has touched everyone who watched it, regardless of our opinions on what the outcome should be.
One thing I would love to hear from other posters - is anyone struck by the similarity between Tiffany and Peter Connelly's mother, Tracy? (Baby P). I have read the serious case review when it was published and lots of similarities hit me watching that programme, mainly how the mother in particular paid lip service to SS requests/demands again and again but never carried them out, and also in relation to references to their own chaotic childhoods (Tracy was on the CPR and there was reference to her having spent time in a residential setting).
I find the similarities in both cases in relation to bruising and excuses for same chilling, also the dogs in the house in both cases (both receiving better care than the children involved). Laptops also in both houses, and probably other similarities which are not known to us.
If Toby were to be left with his parents, and more children arrived (as would seem to be inevitable) would the outcome have been similar? I cannot help but think yes.
The serious case review is here and is upsetting.

tigerlillyd02 · 31/01/2012 21:01

I've been thinking about this all day and watched again on iplayer this evening to take in what was happening.

In terms of language used in the meetings, I really don't think it was so bad that the parents failed to understand. They nodded, put their heads down when something negative was said about them and even smirked at each other when someone said that they thought Toby's development problems may have been inherited. They appeared to understand the majority of what was being said in the parts we saw.

But, I came to the conclusion that they could not be helped to parent. They clearly had emotional problems, but were not by any means stupid. They knew what was being asked of them. They could quite easily follow an instruction like "mop the floor". Gosh, Toby's father even followed instructions to put up a stair gate! They were quite capable of being able to follow instruction and carry out physical tasks.

What they weren't capable of was emotionally caring for their child(ren).
It's quite simple really isn't it. For the majority of us here (possibly) - we want our child to feel comfortable and warm and so provide a bed or suitable place to sleep. We want our children to be healthy and so provide a good diet (and research if we do not know entirely). We want our children to learn and have a good education and so send them to nursery / school. We want to see our children smile and be happy and so therefore do anything, even silly things to see that happen. We worry when they are not happy or are not yet doing something they should be doing and therefore seek help.

If a Social Worker came into my home and said your child needs a certain thing because it's making him uncomfortable and unhappy by not having it - I'd jump through hoops to ensure I provided that. With the knowledge that there was an issue with my parenting and that there's a chance he could be taken into care - the SW's would be saying jump and I'd be asking "how high" as I would do absolutely anything to ensure my child is safe, his needs are met and he remains in my care.

These parents do not have that basic instinct. Yes, you can help them mop a floor. You can tell them their children need a bed, you can even put it up for them. You could clean up for them, encouring them to help. Long term though, they do not agree with what is being advised and don't have that natural instinct to want the very best for their child. Knowing that their child could be cold and uncomfortable without a bed and a blanket, they don't worry about how their child feels but instead refuse to act upon the advice given to correct it.

You cannot teach them how to worry. You cannot teach someone to be concerned. You cannot teach someone to put their child before themselves. They either want to do this ordinarily or they don't. Sadly, in this case they didn't.

I do think they lacked these skills because of issues in their own childhood. They had probably not experienced love, affection, had someone care for them and put them first. As sad as it is though, that is no excuse or reason to put another child through the same as they went through, no matter how badly you feel for them - and then the same would likely occur in years to come when Toby and his sister then went on to have their own children. The cycle needed to be broken.

Of course, there's also a chance Toby and his sister (forget her name!) may feel hurt by what happened in the future. They will naturally wonder about their biological parents. They may even wish that things had been different and that they had been born to good enough parents in the first place instead of having been adopted like most others. But, even with that they will grow to have the basic skills needed to function in society and lead a relatively normal life - including being good enough parents to their own children. Growing up without having your basic needs cared for and experiencing such a level of neglect and abuse will have far more serious consequences in these childrens' future.

mrsjay · 31/01/2012 21:08

dontlaugh sadly these women cover the profiles of a lot of other mothers It is so very sad and frightening to see these parents and what they say they will say 1 thing do another Sad

rudbekia · 31/01/2012 21:13

the problem is that by the age of 3, in terms of development, its almost too late for Toby. Anyone working with children (SW, teachers, health workers etc) have known for YEARS how important the early years are - only now are those in charge waking up to this. When it became obvious Toby was not getting the interraction necessary for him to develop a decent grasp on language and communication he should have been removed. Not to mention that lack of emotional input. His parents might be a mess; yes, Tiff did do a selfless thing giving them up but seeing first hand the damage of a neglected (and in some cases) abusive childhood I would rather see these kids removed more quickly. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

thekidsrule · 31/01/2012 21:18

dontlaugh,i raised the baby p subject last night and the simalarities,funny nobody said anything back,

SW on baby p's case commented on how "nice"his mother was

OP posts:
mrsjay · 31/01/2012 21:22

thekidsrule i didnt notice your comment but it was a really long thread so i probably missed it , but yes these mums are nice most of the time will say all the right things , dont turn up to meetings keep kids off nursery answer the door and not let people in , I think social workers have a hard time and i couldnt do their job ,

dontlaugh · 31/01/2012 21:25

thanks for that mrsjay.
thekidsrule I missed that too, sorry! Interesting how more than one of us is thinking about it though.
There's another similarity, keeping the kids away from nursery (bruises not healed up enough?).