protecting our children

[thekidsrule]

carry on please

I disagree that they didn't know how to care for him - because they were TOLD, very clearly.

They weren't told to start cooking him cordon bleu meals, or to teach him French - ie things that really WOULD have been beyond them.

They were told to clean up the dog shit off the floor. They didn't do it.
They were told to clean his teeth. They didn't do it.
They couldn't even be arsed to put him to fucking BED.

They didn't do these things, or any of the other numerous SIMPLE things they were told they needed to do in order to care for him, because they just couldn't be arsed. Particularly the father.

Even getting him to nursery regularly was a huge commitment. It means time keeping, being clean and dressed, having had meals at the right time etc.

You would have thought that when a bed arrived the parents would have been thrilled and got it up straight away-instead of which the mattress was propped up for some time.

Regarding the nursery, Toby was not there full time. You saw the social workers talking about the fact Toby had arrived at nursery without his lunch

I think the program was intended to show the social workers in a positive light - it even had their favourite slogan 'dammed if we do etc' as the title. I think what is needed is for the profession to give clearer guidance on at what point, a SW's actions can be judged to be wrong. Yes it is difficult work, difficult people, difficult circumstances but the same is true for the medical profession, they work with seriously ill and seriously injured people but they cannot just say 'oh well people die' if a serious medical error is made.

EXOCTICFRUITS- I agree with you in some respect.......TIGERLILLY hit nail on head....I am a child protection social worker (On maternity)and will never return to this job unless my house will be taking away. NANANINA & VIXSATIS sum the world of social work up perfectly. I would ask anyone who questions why Toby was taking away to work with damaged children and adults and come up with a posistive outcome for parents and children. This programme was made over a year......I never had any manager come out with me when I was newly qualified/petrified?(Not that long ago)I wonder if this had been set up for Camera??Very interesting thread.........but my still thinking of the great sadness for all the family

*CalamityKate, I disagree that they didnt care, I think to a large extent they didnt know how to care for him in a way that was of an acceptable standard.

That can be taught.*

Definitely, and I agree that it wasn't a question of caring, rather that the parents were very limited in their capacity to grasp what was going on and how they could affect a different outcome.

The input needed to get their parenting skills up to sctratch would be enormous. And who would do it? DH said to me when we were watching it, 'you could do that' and I'm ashamed to say I said, I could, but I wouldn't. You'd need graduate++ specialist knowledge+ 24 hour supervision. I reckon a team of 3 to support each other and provide wrap around cover on £50,000 each and even then it could all end tragically.

Sometimes the best solution, which I suspect is what we saw there, isn't that great.

Mike interacted more with the dog than he did with Toby.

It all made for difficult watching as I can't quite believe that there are parents out there actively destroying their children physically and emotionally.

Just so pleased Mike is long gone and that the children are out of a piss and shit-filled existance. IMO being permanently removed was the bet decision.

And so hope Toby continues to blossom and the right adoptive family can be found for him.

It was clear that both Tiffany and Mike had major learning difficulties and had been abused themselves as children. Neither or them had the life skills needed to look after themselves never mind a child.

I think that Tiffany was very brave to give up her children for adoption. Even if someone was to teach Tiffany what she needed to do be a good mother, Tiffany is not well enough at the moment. I just hope and pray that Tiffany gets the help and support she needs and makes a good recovery.

Its cruel, but I believe that Tiffany's daughter has a chance of a future. Sadly Toby is severely damaged and I fear that intervention is too late for him. I think the social workers did the right thing to split up the children to give the baby a chance.

Looking after children is not about the parent. I feel the rights of the children are more important than any "right" that the parents have.

xposted with Jelly. Who would do a job with such responsibility, with so little support, for so little money?

@willow Yes it is difficult work, difficult people, difficult circumstances but the same is true for the medical profession, they work with seriously ill and seriously injured people but they cannot just say 'oh well people die' if a serious medical error is made.

People do just die, mistakes are made. But as a profession, Medics are much better paid and more respected.

Right.

So, in the case of the pissy, shitty carpet - what SHOULD the SW have done, that they didn't?

If saying "You need to clean the floor and not let the dogs shit on it" wasn't enough, what should they have done?

Last year a nursery nurse on our HV team spent 8 weeks trying to get parents to feed their 2yr old at a table rather than let him eat crisps,old biscuits off the carpet,which was urine soaked.The dog got removed by the RSPCA for neglect 6 months before the courts decided to remove the child.
The parents did not see the problem and would not change.

I think there was a lot of vagueness about the SN. I wondered if the paed saying there could be 'genetic factors' was a bit of a fudge really, a nod to the parents (were we really sure that they could give an accurate account of their own childhoods, enough to know when they began to talk? it's very difficult for anyone to accurately date their own childhood development).

The fact that Toby's language developed so quickly in foster care suggests his developmental delay may largely have been due to environmental factors. I have certainly known chidren for whom this is the case.

There was a lot of noise upthread about the SW (and other profs') language, and lots of people saying 'why weren't they simpler' and 'why weren't they clearer'.

I have often noticed that it is very difficult to communicate clearly and effectively when you are intimidated (as anyone might be by Mike, who was clearly threatening) or when you are distressed/disturbed (as anyone might be by seeing the conditions Toby was living in), or when you are not being listened to, or when you are having to say something you find emotionally difficult. In those situations you have to try not to shout, not to let your own emotions get expressed in your words. One strategy is to be very formal and polite -- because you are defending yourself against your very natural desire to say something like 'clean the shit up and talk to your child you morons' and then run.

Although SW are trained in communications skills we have to remember they are human beings. How often have any of us come away from encounter thinking that if only we'd said something different it would all have gone better?

Yes people do just die but there are established ways and an enormous body of case law that show at what point medical negligence can be deemed to be a factor in the death or injury. I think this is one of the reasons that doctors are respected to a higher degree than social workers. I think there is at least a perception that social workers are more likely to cite the difficult circumstances as being the main/only reason that the outcome was poor - obviously they are likely to be right in many cases but not all

The SN issue was very vague and I don't think there was clear enough evidence of language improving with foster carers - I'm not saying it didn't but probably it would anyway even in an SN child as only a minority of SN children remain totally non verbal

willow i would suggest that catually within the medical profession that attitude is more prevelant than in social work, and i would also say probably more people die of mediacl negligance than poor social work judgement. have not carried out ant reasearch personally but from experience I would recon my statement is pretty accurate.

i wasn't criticising the social worker who was in their house, more the language used at the case conference.
i've been thinking about this all day... it must be terrible for the actual CP staff, how must they sleep? and the end result is probably for the best... but i do think that in order to get to that stage the system basically manipulated the parents in a fairly dishonest manner.
do agree with teh female-ness of the interactions. i am a total straight talker, i don't successfully process a 'maybe it would be best to...?' deferential approach, i wouldn't interpret that as being deadly serious iykwim? i wonder if for Tiff and Mike there is an element of 'well they're not shouting so it can't be that serious?'

i was in tears watching this
so sad that the mum felt her only option was to put them up for adoption - i was hoping being a single mum might work out for her with lots and lots of support
having said that she did do the right thing so brave ,the kids did deserve more than they were getting
what shocked me the most was the total lack of comunicating ,its like well he cant talk so we wont bother talking to him ,also angered me that they had money and love to give to a dog but no their own son

Re the children going into care, just need to remind people that a judge made the decision based on the facts and with the best interest of the children in mind. Parents had legal representation. Also those of you who are talking about super packages of care need to remember that there is a finite amount of money available. If you pay Peter you will have to rob Paul.

Just heartbreaking, the whole programme. I was very judgemental and angry for the first fifteen or so minutes, but began to feel terrifically sorry for the inadequate mother, who seemed someone who's never had a chance. The father was appalling - but again, probably the result of awful parenting himself. How sad was the scene in the contact centre, while mother was in hospital, where dad couldn't interact at all with his son. But most of all, it was heartbreaking to see that poor little boy - so angry, unable to speak, in that filthy flat. Good on the social workers, to buy him a bed - but it wasn't put up. The dog seemed to have a better life. But did anyone notice when the dog snarled, I think at the father, when he was shouting?

The mother did the right thing, giving up the kids for adoption. But I fear the poor little boy will be hard to place with new parents, due to his problems. I hope so much I'm wrong. I thought the social workers gave the parents every chance - I really can't understand why it didn't seem to sink into them what they had to do to clean the place up, but who am I to understand what had made them the way they are? I'll be thinking of little Toby now, wondering how he's getting on. Poor little chap.

A few of you have commented on the lack of support at the meetings - legal team are not paid to attend the meetings - the parents will have numerous meetings for different things - legal reps will only get paid for LAC review meetings and that is it despite the fact that the Court proceedings are often discussed and the parents are often patronised and struggle to follow what is going on.

I do see parents like this all the time - she would have had (as part of Court proceedings) a parenting assessment, perhaps a pyschological assessmnet which would have looked at her history and her capacity for change.

The department had probably known about the family for a while but the physical abuse that was flagged up became an issue that had to be addressed.

The basic rights of a child - some where to sleep, food to eat, love and warmth were not being met - the family were given the opportunity to changes these basic things and they did not engage - they had opportunity to do so.

Social Workers have a tough job although like any profession there are some better than others and some probably need a career change but i wouldnt fancy their job!

the mother mentioned that they were looking into her childhood, so i assumed that she was getting soem sort of therapeutic or peer support. wonder why that wasn't at all fruitful?

The child on this was 3.5 and had no language. But some children do have SN and language is very delayed. I didn't think they were cruel people, just inadequate.

I thought the most telling thing was when Dad was on a supervised visit with that guardian note taker in the corner and the child was trying to play and Dad was actually taking the toys to look at them.

However, maybe it's embarrassing "play chattering" with kids in front of someone.

I thought the Mum was OK, just ineffectual. But also the child had come on leaps and bounds whilst in foster care. He will have a hard job being adopted I would have thought. Would he have been better off with his ineffectual but kindly mum if he is never adopted?

It's just one phrase so I know not to read too much into it but it made me really sad that Tiffany said she was trying to remember back to her own upbringing to know how to cope with a child. She didn't say care for or look after, she said cope with.

Any of you who say Toby would be better off with his mum than in foster care would you leave your 4 year old with her for an hour?

Aitch - it often isn't. :(