protecting our children

[thekidsrule]

carry on please

dont,yes its a long thread,intresting reading the comments i can see others points regarding keeping child with the family,but still feel totally that Toby needed to be out that enviroment

just saying if this programme wasnt aired and someone came on mumsnet telling us about Toby,living conditions etc etc i think MNers would be up in arms saying call social services,that child should be removed,and would any mother leave the child in their care for an hour,doubtful but it seems ok to leave toby, (thank god they didnt)

I watched footage of some of the sw interviews with peter conellys mum, I would actually not place her in the same bracket as tiffany in terms of emotive behaviour and psychological profile, similar background but very different. Honestly no comparision to tiffany in terms of person.

I can't decide if that's good or bad festi, what do you think? Tracy Connelly had an Irish Traveller background, not sure about Tiff.
It was more the apparent malleability when in contact with authority and ability to play along that struck me from both.

you know, we all just watched an hour of television, i think it's reasonable to have a discussion about it. but can we not turn it into a big he-said she-said about baby P? because some people know just too much about that case, and while it is no doubt worth mentioning in connection with this programme talking about the case on here does bring out the ghouls.

Fair enough aitch, very few CP cases get such exposure so inevitable there will be comparisons. Will sign off here, as this case getting to me more than it should.

totally inevitable, dontlaugh, it's just that some really seriously weird people came on last time.

I would say tiffany was less cunning in a disire to place her needs above the childs, I think she just did not know any better and was affected by her own difficulties and environment, where as tracy would appear to have actively seeked out and placed her children in an unstable environment. from what I observed she had far more intelectual ability to play the system and deliver in a more emotive manner to keep them off her tail and trail of deceit so she could contiue to meet her needs and relationship and internet chat. I think she was far more capable of manipulation than tiffany.

I belive the interviews are out there in the public domain maybe google them but they are quite sadening.

The outcome may have been the same however if the NQSW had unwittingly colooded like the sw in peters case. Peter and Victoria climbie and some other cases are pretty much at the forfront of our training. we are constantly drawing comparision and reflection, practice, accountability, observation etc what can go wrong and why with constant reminder and learning from what went wrong and how practice can be improved in all our learning.

It is a very important aspect of our training to do very much as the NQSW did in the programe she made sure she seen the child, looked in the house and openly addressed the issues with confidence beacause there was no grey area in her knowledge as to what she was observing, she used suppervision and transfered information from the bottom to the top, she made sure her manager was aware and proactive in this case.

The social worker in Peters case was unsure, she lacked support, she also engaed the mother due to feeling intimidated in some cases, she just did not have the confidenance to challenge her and seek out the needs of the child, from I witnessed in the contact interviews she engaged with her and allowed her to talk alot but never managed to extract the right information. She took what she observed as face value and I think tracey was very much aware of and manipulated this to be the situation.

valid point aitch, but is also important to draw comparisons I can understant what you are concerned about though.

i'm not sure it is 'important', is it?

to gain understanding and knowledge I think it is important but maybe not a necessary focuss of discussion on this forum if people are uncomfortable with the type of attention and discussion it may prompt.

Haven't seen the programme yet but have been meaning to catch it. Sounds heart-rending. But I wish government ministers would get their heads round the fact that they are spending enough to pay for intensive support - only they are wasting it on the consequences of family breakdown, instead of putting the intervention in early. Failure to support families costs the taxpayer, as well as the poor people involved, far more in the long run.

With Tracy Connolly, an important feature is the role Lord Laming had already played in her family, during her childhood. Back in his previous job as the local official who should have investigated reports of widespread abuse in Isington children's homes, but failed to act. It's an astonishing piece of hubris that he ended up chairing the inquiry into poor Peter's death.

just found a report in the evening standard dtaed back to 2011 about this edam, thanks for info, was not aware of his conection. will read a little more surrounding the islington scandal.

I have just skimmed, and was obviously shocked at how the boy was being brought up. However, thought the NQSW had entirely the wrong approach from what I saw. She'd wind me up and I have no problems. I speak as a teacher who has worked in hugely deprived areas and the daughter of a psychiatric SW. She was so patronising and didn't come across as understanding the family and their obvious issues. Made me think I could do far better. Quite liked team leader. They must deal with people like that all the time so should be able to communicate with them better - they are the professionals.

I missed the first 10 minutes of the program so missed the part about abuse. I was amazed at what I saw in front of me.

IMO Mike seemed completely uninterested especially when Tiffany wasn't there with him. Like he was just waiting for time to pass. My OH was playing on the computer but it caught his attention too and he made the same observation.

I thought she might make a go of it alone when she said she had split from him and I hoped that without him she might focus on her children and give them the care they need. A part of me thought that she had only made the decision to give them up for adoption for her own selfish reasons but then she did seem to genuinely care for the children, unlike Mike.

Poor Toby though... :(

When someone's house is in a mess and they are reluctant to leave house amd go to appointments etc, wouldn't the first thing you think be depression? And you would get treatment and diagnosis? Why didn't that happen a lot earlier? And why wasn't domestic abuse investigated a lit earlier.

Is this a case of a depressed victim of abuse being made in to a perpetrator ?

I know a lady who has recently reported her husband for dv and rape. The authorities have told her she is a bad mother, she failed in her duty of care, it was her responsibility to protect kids from witnessing her abuse. How does this help the women trust people and seek much needed help and support? How does it help her build the confidence amd strength to prosecute or get away from abuser when the people you are turning to for help are accusing you, and judging you aggressively and are not sympathetic?

rant over sorry for derail

@going mad Made me think I could do far better

I'm from a similar background, and thought the same. The key issue is I wouldn't, because of the responsibility, the pay, low status and conditions and the imoact it would have on my life.

Im amazed that people are amazed tbh. Im sure the other social workers and other professionals on here will agree that they are pretty typical of the cases we see in child and family teams.
So when people say they could do the job better maybe they can remember that.
When i worked in cp this family would have been one of around 10-18 that i worked at any one time. I am very plain and down to earth and do communicate on their level but even when you do that they just dont do what they need to. I have gone to Tesco and bought cleaning stuff then helped a young Mum clean her home only to return the following wek to find the mop and broom in the front garden broken and the house filthy again.The children went to school in winter with no socks.
I told her very plainly what she needed to do and that she would lose the children if she didnt. She did lose them in the end.
As for depression,i agree it is a massive factor and i do make sure that gets covered too but if the children are badly neglected you cannot just leave them in the family because you know the cause of the neglect.
It is very sad and now im in adoption i see the children moving through our department feom the families i used to work with. Awful.

ledkr you are so right. someone could have moved in with this family 24/7 and all that would have happened is the carer would have done all the work while the parents sat around (or went out I suspect). They were truly hopeless.

Poor Toby

JUST WATCHED this
was surprised that toby was still waiting for adoption

and fingers crossed he finds a loving family soon

Why are you surprised? The care system is full of children like Toby. It's an exceptional family who'd be able/wiling to take him on.

That programme was a shocking eye-opener for me, and I did feel very sorry for Tiffany, but I didn't get any sense that she could have made a go of it alone with Toby, never mind with Toby + premature baby. The social workers used too much jargon and didn't seem to offer enough practical support, but they clearly made the right decisions for these children.

The question always has to be where would this child's needs be best met. Imagine Toby growing up in that house without any ss involvement. No warm, safe place to sleep; never any help with school (if he is taken regularly); tooth decay and the pain and problems that come with at an early age; little emotional support or involvement from Mom and Dad; no help for his SN; probably very little help for medical problems that will arise. What would he have been like at age 10 if the SWs had never knocked on their door?

Growing up in foster care sounds awful, but still better than the certainty of his life with Tiffany and Mike (or Tiffany minus Mike, or Tiffany with some another man).

Its such a shame there are no 'maternal mentors' to step in before the child is or has to be removed. If a foster carer can (and should) be paid for caring for a child - can it not be possible for someone to be paid the same rate to do daily or nightly shifts amounting to the same cost to TEACH these parents how to care for a childs needs ?? Just a thought...

And the government's cut funding for SureStart........

Minxi- please refer to ledkr and bunnyspoiler above. I know its hard for most people to imagine but some people are incapable of parenting no matter how much help they get. In other circumstances people are capable of change but it would take years and years to achieve it and these kids don't have those years to spare.