Downton Abbey part 4 we want to know more

[ThePsychicSatsuma]

I still need to talk about it.

animation the 'shame' was that he was in her room and, well, shagging. the fact he was in her room was bad enough. then they dragged his body to his room and covered it up.

they didnt do that in their day, oh no

she wasnt married!! loss of reputation, huge scandal on the family etc etc

she wouldnt have been able to marry after that kind of scandal, and neither would edith or sybil, all tainted by association
= no grandchildren = 3 spinsters to pay for

family disaster. huge stakes

Im reading the Loveday Vendetta at the moment, very downton-y but set in cornwall, lots of scandalous events...strong wild-blooded men

I think Bitch O'Brien has put 2 & 2 together and made 24 from Daisy's twitterings, Thomas' gossip and what she has gleaned from eavesdropping to & from the button box but doesn't know for sure.

Violet knows def as she nearly fell out with Cora about it after her friend wrote a gossipy letter.

Some of her best lines in this scene!!

"animation the 'shame' was that he was in her room and, well, shagging."

So he went to HER room then. Ah well...iIf it had been the other way round she would have looked more the brazen hussy - VERY shameful.

I'm surprised she didn't just say he'd entered her room for some other reason - like he'd been having chest pains or something.

Would they have been able to proove shagging had taken place in those days?

Her room was in a completely different wing- he had to blackmail (gay pass-maker Thomas) to show him where it was.

She couldn't even scream or kick up any sort of fuss because of the scandal, so was effectively embarrassed into letting him in. Then there wasn't much she could do about it really, as he was piling the pressure on.

I've always been really cross that she took so much of the shame on her own shoulders, when there was really nothing she could have easily done differently.

In different times, it could (rightly) be called rape, I think.

Whoops, my brackets went a bit wrong there.

As an aside on the Pamuk thing, I suppose she could just deny deny deny. I don't see how a bit of servants' gossip proves anything.

I really can´t remember-but had she "flirted" with him?

If so, she maybe thought that she was partly to blame?

Ah but Lebof don't forget Edith & Mary were at loggerheads at that time & Edith wrote to the Turkish Embassador with the real scenario. Quite what the poor man was suposed to do about it I'm not sure but the gossip would have gained credence after that I suppose.

That's true, Bossy. And diddl, yes, I think that's why she has never dodged responsibility for it- she wouldn't have had that modern sensibility to realise that a few googly eyes over dinner do not equal a desire to be taken up the jacksy after brandy.

" a few googly eyes over dinner do not equal a desire to be taken up the jacksy after brandy"

I got the impression that she was up for being bedded - and that he hadn't pressurised her.

What Edith did there was pretty bad !!

Hardly surprising that Mary is still frosty with her.

Animation I think she was flattered to be so desired & then was carried along by events as she never expected him to come calling at her bedroom door, & was too polite to refuse I suspect!

All slimy Thomas' fault of course, Pamuk would never have found her room otherwise, which is why Mary is watchful of him,& warned Carson to be careful, she doesn't trust him.

Does Mary actually know Thomas showed him where her room was?

Davey
No she doesn't know. I've always thought it was weird she's never sort of enquiried about this. She'd have Thomas over a barrel if she found out about it though (esp now that he needs to repay those debts and wants his footman job back.)

Good point Daveywarbeck She can't know can she. Only Thomas must know...and perhaps O'Brien. But could O'Brien have told Cora - who told Mary??

I think that Mary fetched Cora to help her-then Anna was fetched to help move his body.

I think Daisy saw & said something either to Thomas or that he heard & since he showed Pamuk Mary´s room, he doubtless guessed what happened.

Mary went to Anna first in a blind panic. Anna went with her and ocnfirmed he was definitely dead and that they needed help to move him - Cora was Mary's choice to take into the secret.

Cora was a good choice because she's cool in a crisis and never loses her composure or drawl.

She was the ultimate choice because she is Mary's mother. She's not going to do the dirty on her.

I wonder if Pamuk told Mary before he rogered made love to her, O'Brien & Thomas have shared bits of gossip from various sources & are GAGGING to know for sure!!

so mebbes old daisy tells the cops about pamuk, thus throwing the motive onto lord fatty/sir r et al

who else is a real friend of bates or woukld sacrifice mary's reputation to save him from a murder charge

it's just gotta be anna..........