Classroom Secrets

[Westernisle]

Anyone watching this tonight?
Watching it on BBC News at the moment segment on it.

DD's classroom they are in rows - state school with a good ofsted.

Migsie - "I also feel talking in groups about random shit is a waste of time, you always end up with 1 or 2 contributing and doing the work and then everyone gets marked off as achieving the goal even though it was 1 or 2 that did the actual work and the couple of kids in the group who don't contribute at all get carried in their wake but essentially have learned nothing."

I completely agree. I am 38 now but have strong memories of "group" work. The brainy one would do all the work (mainly Karen) and everyone would copy the work, or a confident bossy type would take over the group. At 10 years old I distinctly remember feeling this was pointless.

In one year of my ds's school the teacher said - ok sit with and where you like. But, any mucking about and you will be moved and sat by someone you might not want to sit by.

cured all sorts of behaviour/attention issues in an instant. The threat of having to leave all your buddies and sit with someone else worked a charm. It gave them all a sense of self responsibility, with a consequence if you stepped over the known mark.

I'm coming at this from a secondary perspective.
Moveable tables came into vogue particularly to encourage group discussion work when GCSE was heralded.
But the point about them which seems to have been lost is that they are moveable. They don't have to be set out always for large groups every day all day.
Children can be seated in any way appropriate for the subject matter and so the tables can be placed so that children sit facing the front and the teacher can see exactly what is going on and who isn't paying attention. I can see no merit whatsoever in teaching to children's backs.
They can be altered quickly and easily into larger working areas for craft, art or collaborative work.

I am also vehemently opposed to using the hard-working, attentive children as 'minders' for the ditzy ones. It helps none of them.

And I hated the waste of valuable resources in that so-called intensive reading session. Each child would have benefitted more from a shorter amount of time spent one-to-one.

Corie needed specialist help and a visit from an Ed Psych would be high on the list of my priorities for that boy. There was some deep-seated problem there and nothing we saw on the screen was addressing his real needs.

Could I just ask any teachers out there, if they saw children continuously yawning like Maisie on the programme, would they speak to the parents about it or do teachers not get involved with that sort of thing?

I'm a teacher and I do indeed speak to parents if their child seems particularly tired. Often they are aware of the problems and seem grateful to be able to talk about it and maybe get some tips and ideas.

The discipline in that classroom was pretty dire. I work in a very deprived area and my year 4 class has a lot less low level disruption than that. Then again, I spend time setting high expectations and there are clear consequences if they do not do as expected.

I work in the primary school my DCs attend and the classes are totally different to this, not so much in terms of behaviour, but in atmosphere. The teachers in the programme seemed tired and unenthusiastic. Our teachers are cheerful, animated and communicate a love of learning. I think much of the low level disruption was because the children were unmotivated. Just couldnt believe how miserable the HT, class teacher and TA looked. I was shouting ' don't you ever SMILE? ' at the TV!

It's all creativity and flexibility. Children need to develop co-operation and negotiation skills, which they learn through group work. On the other hand, they also need to develop independent learning skills. A good teacher - state or public - develops these skills through the activities they plan. Unfortunately programmes like this play to the stereotype and media image. Tables move and so should the children. I never have the children sitting in the same place throughout the day, week and definitely not the through out the year.

Oh and all you working parents - do you spend all day, every day at work completely focused on your job? Do you ever sneak a personal phone call? Or a little light chat with a colleague? Or quick surf on the internet? I don't think children can concentrate for hours at a time. Controversial I know. But hey ho...

I agree with you, Sassy Frassy. I work in an incredibly deprived area and we have BIG behaviour problems borne out of emotional instability, chaotic homelives and anger problems. However, the behaviour problems are deep seated emotional problems and, as such, we tend to have big blow ups from children who have lost control of their tempers instead of low level disruption. The low level stuff is the children choosing to behave in a disruptive manner and we have a very clear policy (down to a list on the wall of every room of the exact consquence for each behaviour, so that everyone knows the result of shouting out, talking too loudly, getting out of their seat without permission, throwing things...etc). As a result, we don't have too much of that and when it arises it is dealt with swiftly and firmly. You are right - it is about expectations.

Being spat at, scratched, kicked and sworn at by children who have completely lost control of themselves because they were beaten black and blue by Dad last week, or their Mum has just gone to prison, yes. We get quite a bit of that, but that takes a lot of time and support and nurturing to solve.

I'd love to teach at that school. I think I'd be able to engage those children and get them working - it has made me feel a whole lot better. (I do understand that it was heavily edited, by the way) If that is the worst behaviour they have then it would be a walk in the park for any teacher at my school!

Oh - and letthembe. I completely agree, as does the teaching profession as a whole, which is why, on the whole, lessons are broken into short, manageable chunks of time. some teachers (me included) break the sessions up with quick bursts of physical activity to refocus wandering minds. Children are never expected to concentrate for long periods of time. I would assume that those children in the programme who you saw losing concentration and drifting off would only be expected to work on a task for 20 minutes at the most and, if a nine year old can not manage that, then that needs to be tackled in itself.

The teacher looked like she did not enjoy her job at all :(

i don't want to be too critical of the teacher, as i believe the programme is edited for the maximum impact. However, I never sit with my back to any children (she did) and her voice didn't have much expression.

applecrumble - i agree
i would have thought they should have been advised by staff that maisie was tired and using awful language and when they responded by saying she is up after the watershed on weekend nights - at least asked 'why?"

It was an interesting program but why anyone agreed to be in it is beyond me, I pity children whose parents agree for them to be filmed for any 'reality' show... Talk about being labelled for life. I was also shocked at the 2 croissants for snack/breakfast. Rio's parents should have been informed earlier about his behaviour, that was uneasy watching. I didn't like table groups either when I taught Y4, I had them in a U shape which worked really well. Find it annoying on here when you explain the difference in classroom behaviour between state and private as down to teaching alone! You are paying so your children do not learn alongside disruptive children. Most teachers would be excellent if you didn't have difficult children in your class.

Maisy's parents had been told before about her swearing.

They'd asked Maisy about it and she had vehemently denied (and been believed). Was positive for them to be shown absolute proof.

I also got the impression that Cory and James's issues had been flagged to the parents already, but there was a gap in understanding, whereby the parents couldn't appreciate the level of difficulty/concern. With Cory for example, the mother specifically said that she couldn't understand why he was being rewarded for sitting, when he should have been doing that anyway, and should be rewarded for working hard. On seeing how difficult he found the classroom in every respect, his mother understood why it was important to reward him for doing something, even if just sitting still and listening, in order to try and build positive associations with school. He evidently needs more than a 2hour TA though.

MrsJamin "Most teachers would be excellent if you didn't have difficult children in your class." Really?

I was a TA in a really rough High school (in a Grammar area). I followed my named child in Y10 from class to class. Same kids- bottom set. In English they were foul. In French they were foul. Maths was a nightmare. But History, Chemistry and Physics there was no disruption and they all worked. Same kids but better teachers. The Chem teacher was 4 foot nothing and looked like a strong wind would blow her away. She never raised her voice but she took no prisoners either, and they knew it. The maths and English teachers- both men- shouted and screamed and threatened, and the kids ignored them and did what they wanted.

....oh God we're back to Tarquin bashing again.

What has Little Tarquin done to you MNers??????

I have just watched this on iPlayer.

I really was not impressed by the staff at the school (I am a teacher myself). I thought they were passive and reactionary, instead of anticipating situations and being proactive. The main classroom teacher did not notice what was going on in her classroom, although did recognise that she could seat herself differently to get a wider view. The TA in the special reading class of three pupils did not notice the antics the girl sitting next to her was having.

I felt really sorry for Corey and James. The school seemed to have given up on them.

Then teacher spent an awful lot of time sitting down (I never do that) and ploughs on with lessons even though the children were not listening to her.

The parents do share some of the responsibility. There were not any great examples of family life, eg with children having their tea on their laps in the living room. The parents came across as articulate and reasonably well educated, but are missing something in their parenting skills.

It is sad to see Y4 children like this as it is such a wonderful year.