Classroom Secrets

[Westernisle]

Anyone watching this tonight?
Watching it on BBC News at the moment segment on it.

Agree with point about classroom set up Tallulah

Call me old fashioned but surely that is placing unfair/unrealistic expectations on 8/9 yr olds - they are bound to be tempted to sit and chat when facing one another. Also, very difficult for the teacher to see and be seen when she is mingling in with the group tables all the time.

What's wrong with two-by-two desks in lines? And having to ask permission to get up and fetch water etc?

Disagree with those who say the classroom environment is dull. Compared with schools over here (mainland Europe) it was positively brimming with bright colours and modern equipment.

I really didn't agree with the whole "just have a drink when you fancy it" thing (unless for medical need). Far too disruptive.

thecrackfox - I totally agree. In DS's class (yr1) they are not allowed to get a drink whenever they want as it disrupts the class etc...

Although exceptions are made when its v hot etc, but they still need to ask for permission.

I didn't like the way the teacher sat on the desk - poor role model.

I hate classrooms where all the children sit in rows, I don't think it encourages better behaviour and it hinders positive work based discussion.

The wandering around is very tricky to manage - especially as we are supposed to work with a focus group, hard to focus on 6 children and know what the 24 other children are doing.

It looked like a lovely bright classroom.

the six week 'intensive' reading program looked like a total waste of resources
i kept shouting at the tv 'you cant even see them ' then she moved another one next to her so she could only focus on one at once three opposite her - same book - hear them read -simple
the teacher seemed lacklustre and bored
a lot of those children needed boundaries - same old story - sit them opposite you in rows and scan to see who is NOT doing what they should be
Also thought the teacher should have questioned Maisies parents as to how approriate they thought TV at 10 pm on a sturday night is for an 8-9 year old
It's NOT approriate and they appeared to think it was

The problem is Paula that if you question parents they can become very defensive and you run the risk of the parent/teacher relationship breaking down. It sounded to me like previously Maisy's parents had not really engaged with school in terms of her behaviour so I suspect the head was taking a softly softly approach to ensure they stay onside.

That and editing.

Teaching is so so different to when we were at school, it is no longer considered appropriate to teach to the whole class and then stand at the front throughout, or sit at your desk and ask the children to come to you. Teachers are expected to be very active and assertive in their teaching - that teacher clearly worked with a focus group in each lesson and as a result behaviour was not fantastic but it is such a tricky thing to manage.

I think the old style 2 seater's, possibly with ancient ink well and lifting lid all facing the front looking at the board type of learning is underrated tbh. I remember always hating the group style learning, and sitting in little islands.

It was the same at university all this analyse your learning style and discuss random shite with the people who happen to sit next to you. Erm NO just teach me what I need to know and lets both go our own way in the shortest time possible thank you very fecking much.

I'm no expert but it just seemed to me that the way everyone was seated caused a lot of the "low level disruption" and led to a lot of unnecessary hassle that could be eliminated fairly easily. Much more demanding for the teacher too.

I understand the need for dc to learn to collaborate and think for themselves, but wouldn't they be better doing that once they are at an age when they have learnt a bit more self control and can benefit from it more? This way, everyone seems to lose out, including the dc who can already focus well.

wonder what the ofsted rating is for that school??

dreading 'outstanding'

It is rated 'good'

It was a failing school three years earlier and was now rated 'good'. The head had been in place for two years.
The Head grew on me. I thought she handled the parents well and didn't rub their noses in it, which might have been tempting particularly with Maisie's.
The class teacher was less impressive though. She seemed to me to lack authority. A little enthusiasm from her would have gone a long way and much of the low level disruption seemed to stem from boredom.

lulaloop, you say "Teaching is so so different to when we were at school". We frequently get reports about how many infant school children are being expelled, there is more disruption etc etc. Could this have anything to do with this style of seating/ teaching? Something clearly isn't working.

We moved DS2 from a state primary where everyone did their own thing and moved about, lots of noise etc, to a private school where they sat in rows facing the teacher. He thrived. He has ADHD and couldn't cope with the distractions. He also needed somebody to be in charge and say "now we are going to do XYZ" and they all did the same thing at the same time. It was a non-selective primary and the standards were way higher than the state primary- literally years ahead.

I'll put my hands up first and confess that I don't have any dc.
But I found the class room very 'busy' and would have issues even as an adult working in that noisy an area

Many schools have larger tables, not just rows of tables in juniors. It can work extremely well and definitely does so in my DD's school. I don't like just seeing rows of tables in classrooms, makes group work especially far more difficult. Obviously low level disruption has to be avoided, but that can most definitely be achieved even if children are sat at tables of 4, 6 or 8.

Not seen this programme though. I suspect it would be frustrated me.

Ah, just read a bit more. I think it is the moving around and doing their own thing bit that is the issue, not the grouping of tables. At DD's school the girls are not allowed to just get up and walk about. They sit at larger tables but have to do their work there and not get up.

We sat in groups back in the 70's so I don't think it is a new thing and the behaviour was of course much better back then so something else is to blame imo.

I thought the teacher was lacking in consistency and there seemed to be no reprecussions if you did anything wrong. How many children are going to take any notice of somebody saying 'Stop that' which is what seemed to be going on in the programme. I also thought she seemed lacking in motivation and enthusiasm, I don't remember seeing her smile at all. Of course that could be the fault of the editing but I don't think she came across well.

A child like Corey would have been removed from the group a lot more at DS's school - the teacher wouldn't have been chasing him around the playground trying to get him to blow a whistle. How demotivating must that have been for the other children?

Totally agree that the seating was bizarre! The parents of the well-behaved one weren't shown the video of their (rather resilient) son trying to work with a rolled up tube of paper tapping him (not violently, but very annoyingly) on the head over and over again. Seemed unfair to make the well-behaved one "cope" with the distraction when they could be improving their own work, and imagine going in every day to that. Depressing. At the end, the teacher quietly said that she was going to keep a closer eye on the effect on children around the disruptive ones, and not just the kid who had been identified as needing support. About time too. Surely it can only work if they actually watch what's happening to make sure the "minder" doesn't suffer.

Ah well, not an expert. But my DD1 is starting primary this year and I'm to think this is how it works! She's no angel, but I think she'd find it really unsettling. Is this classroom set-up commonplace?

Feel like Victor Meldrew. In my day...

Just watched this on the i-player.

Just hold on a minute while I adjust my judgey pants.

Right...

This school got a good ofsted?

I spent the entire programme shouting at the screen!

There are obviously rewards (certificates and stickers) but where was the discipline and sanctions in this classroom?

Those kids mucking about and not getting on with their work would have got one warning from me then it would be their break time gone. The teacher seemed very lack lustre- no real encouragement and when she did praise them it was like she didn't really mean it. She claimed some of her pupils were not motivated. I am not surprised- it all seemed rather boring.

Far too much wondering around having drinks and the boy who was allowed to go and have breakfast? WTF? He admitted to the TA it was a ploy to get out of class- how was this not later challenged by the teacher?

The little lad with the learning difficulties needed specialist help not just TA crowd control in the classroom.

Reading intervention? Hearing children bark at text is hardly an intervention especially when every third word is interrupted by telling the rest of the group to behave- perhaps they deliberately left out the bits where the adult questioned their understanding and helped them to engage with the text?

Glad to see the parents of the disruptive girl had got a grip by the end of the programme- they were unbelievably naive and ineffectual- no wonder she was such a nightmare.

One last thought how does a teacher (presumably reasonably experienced)
who needs a TV programme to help her with the most basic of dicipline techniques ("it taught me where I needed to sit so I could keep a closer eye on the distuption..."- duhh?!)-

-get to be an assistant head?

I suppose we are not getting the whole picture- it might be editing that made this class seem worse than it actually was for the sake of entertainment...

But somehow I doubt it.

As you were.

to be fair . The prog had an agenda "naughty children" That said, I dont think the school deserved its GOOD rating.

Teachers with no pizazz....no real enthusiasm. But they may be complaining about the editing.

I think all those "disruptive" children are really completely normal, and just needed a firm hand (friendly but FIRM). They mostly seemed bored.

What about blowing bubbles in the middle of a lesson, and the lacklustre Teacher saying: "Now, maybe you should do that after school, not in class. What do you think? Shall I take it? bladibladibla". Come on, a 9 yr old blowing bubbles in class is taking the mickey!

The staff was all very wet an ineffective.

Children LIKE knowing where they stand. They LIKE firm boundaries. They LIKE learning. They are curious, they want to know things. Yet this was sooooo dull!

All this messing about, it is amazing some kids do any work at all.

This programme confirmed my worst suspicions.

I help out at our local "good" school, and it is like that. Lots of wandering around, bored kids. They seem to teach little groups and ignore the rest, how is that supposed to work, how how HOW?!

It was both disturbing and enlightening. I had a pretty good idea what it would be like, tbh- it amazes me that any DC learns anything at all when you a) know how dozy and easily led one's own DSs can be and b) how easy it would be to be distracted by endless low level messing around. DS2, who is an average student, not infrequently complains to me how fed up he can get with other DCs mucking about on his table all the time.

I also wonder whether there'd be some merit in placing school desks in rows facing the teacher, like we used to (showing my age?).

I have always been a tiny bit suspicious of the '6 kids around an oblong table with no teacher or TA' scenario which seems to be the norm. I'm sure it works a treat with the conscientious, clever DCs who don't need constant supervision but it evidently doesn't work with the less able, easily bored!

One thing struck me, hoiking up my judgey pants- the croissants for breakfast, served to the DD whilst she watched morning TV- without even the demand for manners! And what sort of time was she up the back alley with the neighbouring DCs learning the language she was writing on the whiteboard?!

I am really worried for the little boy James. He was evidently so hopelessly out of his depth academically (and socially). Surely he'd be the poster child for the need to go in, guns blazing, ££ trailing to 'recover' his education before it was totally lost! I note in the final voice over the wheeling in of a specialist teacher to help him- why did it take a TV crew to bring that evident truth to the fore? Note I'm not really bagging the teacher- what a job! And though the area didn't look 'sink estate' I bet it's in a socially challenging area where the teachers need to be a bit softly softly with some parents to avoid aggression and confrontation. Which is also why probably the teachers were rewards and stickers based, with no obvious sanctions and discipline.

Finally, also controversially, if it were possible to compare apples with apples what I'd like to see would be a similar program on a non selective, 'cheap' private prep class. Though of course, there'd be 15 DCs in the class for a start!

I wonder what a similar school demographically filmed in say France and the USA would be like? I think we can guess what a Chinese school would look like, esp as there was an interesting SBS (Australian) program on just that recently.

I agree with VforVienetta, my DD ended up as the one who did all the work in the group (top set), then started getting moved around the groups, she hated this (she thought it meant she was no longer good enough to be in th top set) and on closer questioning I discovered she was being moved onto other tables "to be a good influence" on those who mucked about. DD is the type who wants to get on with her work and not keep being pestered by children who want to copy her. We subsequently moved her into a school with desks in a row so she only had 1 child to sit next to and she and the other child chose to sit next to each other, so it was much better for her.

I would have hated a class arrangement like this, if you are an audio learner or audio sensitive (10% of the population are including me and DD) any background noise like this would be intolerable and not at all conducive to learning.

I also feel talking in groups about random shit is a waste of time, you always end up with 1 or 2 contributing and doing the work and then everyone gets marked off as achieving the goal even though it was 1 or 2 that did the actual work and the couple of kids in the group who don't contribute at all get carried in their wake but essentially have learned nothing.

For me, this programme flags up what a state the whole education system is in. I agree with all of those who have said they would prefer the desks in lines & peace & quiet to learn. However, if any teacher did this they would instrantly fail Ofsted because it wouldn't promote the current trend of working in small groups.
As a parent, we took DD out of state school at the end of year 2 because she was constantly used as a 'minder' for the naughty ones & it had severely affected her self-confidence and education. She is now in a class of 14. When I pick her up from homework club, I can walk into the classroom and hear a pin drop. She is much happier & must be working at least 2 levels beyond her old classmates because she has teachers that actually teach & are not put there by the government to babysit!
As a teacher, I have been involved with state school music projects where the only option is to have the whole class in lines learning together. It is a very popular course with headteachers & the main feedback we get from them is that they love having us in because it is the only chance the class gets to work together without Ofsted being all judgy on them.
Where on earth does this leave the education system???