Big fat gypsy weddings

[LittleDonkin]

So looking forward to this!!!! I loved it last time!

Conculainey you are mixing up 'settled' Irish immigrants to Britain (who have been arriving for hundreds of years, with a huge influx around the time of the Famine of the 1840s and continuing to another peak in the 1950s, only to be greeted by the 'No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish' signs - they had the same warm embrace in the US: 'No Dogs, No Jews, No Irish') with the Travellers, who began arriving in the UK in the mid 20th century, coinciding with the general Irish immigration of the 1950s. The Travellers live a nomadic life even in Ireland and have done so for centuries. And they are treated like second class citizens in Ireland, maybe even moreso than in the UK.

You are right about the general lewd atmosphere of most cities on weekend nights though. The Traveller girls are doing the best they can, whether their taste in dresses matches that of Loveitalia or not. They live their (short) lives in circumstances that are not enviable in any way. There is no reason to speak derisively of them.

Loveitalia
They stay within your own communities because of attitudes like yours.A lot of them have suffered discrimination so will not venture out into the wider communities.

It annoys me how racism is still considered acceptable against gypsies and travellers by some.

"I think they should be sent to an empty island to get on with whatever it is they do."

Oh really?

Someone else suggested that about a minority whose lifestyle they disapproved of, you know. Chap named Adolf Hitler. When the plan fell through he resorted to plan B. Gassing. .

"And as for the young girls not drinking or have sex before marriage....I've never heard as much pap in my life, just look at the state of how they dress, they look like prostitutes."

I see. And Masaai women have their tits out, so yeah, definitely tarts. Cultural difference? Absolute myth: everyone lives just like you.

Your entire post is one of the most disgustingly racist things I have ever read in my entire life.

hi regarding the disability issue i saw a traveller communion party in a pub last year and there was a girl in a wheelchair , she was totally included, in fact her main problem appeared to be a totally wheelchair unfriendly step in the middle of the pub

I'm not at all racist, me and my family have had jobs done by Travellers and they did a fab job. I have friends who come from all backgrounds and accept people for who they are. I get the impression (from the programme) that they seem to want to live the way they do - not that they do because they are not welcome in our society. after all it is their society/country as much as ours. but as many others have said, what seems to be bullying tactics by the boys to the girls isn't right. We wouldn't let it happen to anyone else in our community so why is it ok for them. I feel sorry for the girls as it came across that they weren't happy.

perfect storm Maasai women wouldn't be allowed to live in England walking around with their bits out surely. So that isn't relevant. Before you have another go, I'm not saying that is right or wrong either.
Everyone are basing their comments on what they saw or know and I have read some interesting stuff, i am so not against how they choose to live but some things go against the grain (as loads of things in life do, in this country and others)

Having been involved in identifying temporary stopping places for Travellers and Gypsies, you'd be amazed at how many people preface their blatantly racist comments with the phrase "I'm not racist but..".

Gypsies and Travellers have to deal with day to day casual and ingrained hostility from a large proportion of the settled population. Their lifestyle, culture and traditions are being eroded by us (the settled population).

They have very few places to go, oh unless we let them stay next to a rubbish dump, electricity substation or perhaps if they are lucky, on the side of a busy A road. As one twat put it to me "Put them on a busy road as one of the kids is likely to be hit by a car".

"you'd be amazed at how many people preface their blatantly racist comments with the phrase "I'm not racist but..". "

totally agree. it is the same as saying no offence when you are about to offend someone.

There's a lot of muddle here about "race" and "culture". "Race" is a rather spurious concept being based on an arbitrary set of physical characteristics (skin colour, hair type etc. but not, e.g. blood group); but it does refer to a set of characteristics with which one is born, as a matter of genetics, there is no question of choice about it.

That being the case, I would never think ill of someone on the grounds of their race.

Culture and religion are different. They involve choices made by individuals or communities; and I think that those choices are fairly open to criticism. I do not think that all cultures are equal: some involve less fairness, more cruelty, less freedom, less creativity than others. Most cultures have a share of good and a share of bad.

There are things I dislike about gypsy/ traveller culture: I dislike the lack of opportunity for women. I dislike the lack of respect for education. I hate the mess that always surrounds one of their sites (yes I know their houses/trailers are impeccable inside and that their standards of hygiene are almost certainly higher than mine). I suspect that some of them mostly work within the black economy and do not pay their full share of tax (whilst making at least some use of schools, hospitals etc). I think that their clothes are brash and ugly. On the good side, they seem to have cohesive families, loyal and loving to one another and, to the extent that they really do travel, I can see the appeal of that.

The fact that I don't like these elements of traveller/gypsy culture does not mean either: (i)that I am racist; or (ii) that I think everyone with a gypsy/traveller heritage personally shares any or all of these cultural traits.

Most of the hostility which gypsy/traveller people encounter is about their behaviour (building without PP on greenfield sites etc.) not because of "race". Hostility is also generated because people feel that they cannot criticise without being branded "racist".

I can't recall if it was on this thread that someone referred to the fact that Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers are legally recognised ethnic groups and under the Race Relations Act 1976 (as amended) in the UK. So really a discussion about what is race, culture, religion is pretty spurious. They are recognised as a distinct legally protected ethnic or racial group.

i find the programme fascinating although do take it all with a pinch of salt so to speak, and don;t believe everything channel 4 want me to believe.
I used to be a midwife and have taken care of a fair few traveller women, i would say mainly irish travellers though.
one of the ladies came into the hospital to give birth and then went home right away to her caravan that was in a retail park car park.
on visiting her the next day, the police were there to move them on and i actually felt sorry for the community as it was the third time they'd been moved on in two days they had only stopped so that the lady could have her baby and receive some medical care before they moved on of thier own will.
while i was there several other women came into the caravan and asked to be seen as they were pregnant.
for them it was more of a case of not being able to access ante natal care as they were never stopped long enough to find/register with a gp or practice.
I did give a big talk on the importance of cleanliness for bottlefeeding as the new mum had a large baby bottle filled with cows milk that she would give to the baby when the baby was crying and not sterilise the bottle or change the milk for each feed.
i'm not sure what class of gypsy they were thinking about it as the programme implies that both types of travellers are very clean and houseproud and this caravan was filthy.

Totally agree with pointissima you put it far better than I ever could. End

I think this is a difficult subject to discuss as other ethnic groups don't have perhaps as many challenging characteristics that some travellers have. You do have to choose your words very carefully as I discovered(which I'm about). It is important to over generalise however not discussing some pertinent issues honestly does no favours to the travelling community what so ever.

I just get angry about kids I've taught in the past that have come in very behind,put everything into giving them extra support(which you take away from the rest of the class),witnessed the extra support they get from county only to see said kids flying but removed a few weeks later. Then it's back to square one again. Saying these kids deserve more and that their parents should be held accountable is important imvho.

I also think said parents should be held accountable for letting vulnerable girls put themselves in such violent situations.It's not the kids fault but the parents and they should again be held accountable. Saying "it's part of their culture we mustn't judge" doesn't help them what so ever. How do you go about doing anything about said issues and give these kids better life chances without insulting a culture? I'd be genuinely interested in Bubbles views.

MissBeehive does it ever occur to you that there are very specific reasons why some people may not be thrilled at the thought of travellers living (either temporarily or permanently ,legally or illegally) in their village, that are actually nothing whatsoever to do with race, or racism?

Fellatio - Yes, it does. If people object because of good planning reasons then I think those objections are entirely valid. However, most of the time the objections are usually because of ignorance and prejudice.

There are a lot of myths spread about Travellers and Gypsies and people buy into that.

There is anti social behaviour in all aspects of our society, to target all Travellers and Gypsies because of the actions of a few is wrong.

MilaMae I also think said parents should be held accountable for letting vulnerable girls put themselves in such violent situations.It's not the kids fault but the parents and they should again be held accountable.

I totally agree,when a culture has a reputation for having loyal and loving families,how do parents and siblings just stand back and let this happen,it wouldnt happen in my family.

The Irish Commission on Itinerancy (1960) found that 'public brawling fuelled by excessive drinking further added to settled people's fear of Travellers ... feuding was felt to be the result of a dearth of pastimes and illiteracy, historically comparable to features of rural Irish life before the Famine'. (from Wikipedia)

The 1960s heralded an age in Ireland when the Travellers were really left behind as the rest of society lurched forward at great speed, with education to 18 becoming the norm for the vast majority of Irish children while avoidance of school remained the Travellers' norm. They found themselves without their traditional work of mending metal household items and farm tools as agriculture became more streamlined and machine oriented and as people simply threw out broken pots and pans and bought new ones instead of mending and making do.

There was also a massive move towards urbanisation in Ireland as a whole, with communities the size of Cork springing up in the course of a few decades around Dublin (Tallaght for example). The Travellers followed the trend and moved to the cities but remained on the margins of vast tracts of low income housing for the most part - and their habits wrt drinking and brawling were not too different from those of the settled communities.

Right now, the Travelers are caught in the crack between the two worlds of the old rural Ireland that is now gone and the new urbanised, educated one (about 40% of Irish adults aged between 25 and 34 have a university degree). They haven't adapted well except in unusual individual cases, and except for the adoption of many of the malaises of newly urbanised low income areas. They are even more like fish out of water in the UK, where they are distinct because of their Irish origin as well as their way of life although they have some protection as a group under the law, and are classified as a separate ethnicity, whereas they are not in Ireland.

The Irish state has had a tendency to undertake social engineering throughout its history and since the 1960s has undertaken several unsuccessful initiatives to try to change the Travellers' way of life, improve health and education through settlement, and integrate the community better. Most of the old approaches have undergone a rethink in the recent past as they just compounded old problems and gave rise to new ones while doing nothing to ease integration.

'held accountable for letting vulnerable girls put themselves in such violent situations.'

It's hardly the girls' fault though, is it - that's an egregious example of victim blaming there.

Better to intervene and stop the boys surely? Or is it a crime for a girl to walk in a car park during a wedding?

i agree math it is teh parents of the boys taht should eb held accountable. not the girls. walking alone is not putting yourself in a vulnerable situation. it is teh boys that create the danger.

It wasn't the wedding but the other hanging out place, late with boys all intent on "grabbing", not a very nice environment to let your teenager hand out-boys and girls.

hang not hand

Math, indeed you are correct. During the late 1990s the Irish (Eire) goverment set all the travellers up in housing but they were all herded together in places like Limerick and to the outskirts of Dublin and Cork, these places quickly became ghettos for "Knackers" as travellers are called in Eire. This was a poor attempt to rid the modern Ireland of its old and very traditional image which totally backfired on the Irish goverment, these new traveller locations have turned into drug and crime invested no go areas which has totally destroyed the travellers way of life instead of the so called integration process. So if these people want to travel then they should be allowed to do so as they clearly cannot function as a community when isolated and caged up.
The North of Ireland on the other hand has no Irish traveller community at all and has not had since the 1970s, the only travelling people there are "New age travellers" who are of mainly English or Dutch origins so the tag "Travellers" can apply to many races of people though the term "English Travellers "would be pretty much unheard of in most places.

"perfect storm Maasai women wouldn't be allowed to live in England walking around with their bits out surely. So that isn't relevant. Before you have another go, I'm not saying that is right or wrong either."

Oh stop wriggling out of your own words and take some responsibility like an adult.

You said NOTHING about cultural difference, cling to that figleaf though you may desperately be doing now. You explicitly said that you thought "they" should all be sent (NOT go) to live on a distant island and that you absolutely refused to believe that these girls were as innocent as portrayed because they "dress like prostitutes." My point was not, "should Masaai women walk around London topless", it was, "do you think Masaai women look like prostitutes, for walking around topless?" A point you have carefully sidestepped for very obvious reasons.

You can backpedal and misrepresent my words, and your own, until you are blue in the face, and the fact your comment was so disgustingly racist Mumsnet have chosen to delete them makes that all too easy for you, but I read it and you wrote it. I shall repeat the two small exerpts I quoted last time, as they're all that is left of your original diatribe:

"I think they should be sent to an empty island to get on with whatever it is they do. And as for the young girls not drinking or have sex before marriage....I've never heard as much pap in my life, just look at the state of how they dress, they look like prostitutes."

Shameful. Whatever reasonable and legitimate concerns people may have about lifestyle choices that reduce life chances for the kids in the communities concerned, your comments were pure, prejudiced, kneejerk venom. Not in the same ballpark at all.

This was fascinating viewing but I feel we should have been given a little background information on the differences between Romany gypsies, Irish travellers, English travellers and 'Show people'. It seems they were all lumped together as one.

I, for one, would be interested to know whether all English travellers are Romanies (I don't think they are)and what about Fairground people? Are they 'Show people' or something different again?

This programme seemed to focus on Irish travellers. Swanley, however, might have been a Romany. I'm not sure. Is there much inter-marrying between different traveller groups? Do they get on?

Do Romany gypsies like to be called travellers or not?

Not much intermarriage at all. Each has its own separate identity and pride is high. Ireland had very few Romany until the EU grew to include Eastern Europe, when Roma groups began arriving in large numbers. There are a lot of New Age folk but afaik they're mainly to be found in the west, and have possibly moved to greener pastures since the economic fizz died in Ireland.

The attempts by the Irish government to settle the Travellers began in earnest in the 1960s - the miserable sites which are now home to a lot of Travellers on the outskirts of cities are a reflection of the failure of those old policies of past decades, a failure which was due to the reluctance of Traveller men to be domesticated plus the Nimbyism of all but the poorest and most voiceless of settled communities.

Those communities deeply resented the presence of Travellers, fully realising what it meant in terms of their own status. Further, the communities tended to be brand new council housing tracts which had virtually no amenities for anyone, no established bus routes, schools in pre-fabs, no playgrounds, no nearby shops or doctors' offices, no local police stations. Support for young families, whether settled or Travellers, was not available.

Most are now very blighted communities and urban planners have devoted mush effort to remedying the problems (demolition and redevelopment of Ballymun for example.) In Galway, redevelopment of a squalid housing complex which had been home to both Travellers and other very poor families included input from residents and a say in how the community was to be run. In NI, Travellers were treated with outright hostility by Loyalist gangs who saw them not just as Travellers, but Irish and Catholic.

The settlement efforts included 'serviced' sites (concrete slabs for the caravans and running water available at a communal spigot, walls around the sites, and gates) and concrete block tigeens, all for small groups, as well as allocation of council houses to certain families. Initially the tigeens were often burned in the spring as the families got ready to resume travelling for the summer. Truancy officers and HVs could visit - which some Travellers found annoying. Generally speaking, the sites didn't work out very well, and the fate of families housed in the poorest areas wasn't much better.

perfect storm i'am not trying to backtrack - re: Maasai women - I didn't know what you were referring to exactly when you brought that into question.
Ok, maybe what I should have said is what another post said in that their style of dress isn't in line with their strict beliefs. I totally hold my hands up that my first post was wrong and I could have put my point across better. As with any race/religion/culture, no-one is whiter than White and I wasn't saying they all sleep around (and if they do that's up to them) but I'm sure some don't stick to the rules. Some posts have said that they live how they do because we won't let them be part of our society - we let millions of non English born people into the country to live and be part of us, so why not Travellers? I wouldn't have a problem with it. We have a Travellers site only a mile from me and they have been there as long as I can remember. They have done some work at my home (if I was racist I wouldn't have done this), the negative things have come from people I know who have had bad experiences. So, combining this with the c4 programme you end up with an overall picture which, as many have said, can leave you with a distorted image of what Travellers are about. I get the impression that they like living how they live and most/some wouldn't live differently if they got the option to do so. There are so many views on this, we could go on forever. I am not racist, and apologise to anyone I have offended, I can't say more than that.