Help - my daughter and my husband's relationship at rock bottom

[sazzle1970]

Hello mumsnetters, just looking for some collective wisdom. My 15 year old daughter is in the middle of her GCSEs. They are going well and she has worked hard. But there is a huge problem in that she has told me on numerous occasions that she hates her dad (my husband), and she can't wait to leave home. She treats him with barely concealed disgust and coldness if he does anything that she doesn't approve of (from the understandable to the ridiculous... normally related to issues like picking his teeth or coughing loudly - any action or noise that is intrusive). He gets very hurt by her behaviour, and says he is really sick of being the punchbag, and I end up being the go between. When I talk to her about it, she says she doesn't believe he loves her because when she was little and she needed him he wasn't there, which is obviously very painful to hear. She's thinking back to a period of depression before she went to school, when I was at work and he was the stay at home parent for her and her brother and struggled to cope. Many years have passed since then - he's a really loving dad, and a good one - but she can't get past it. This has all come to a head since I took a demanding new job six months ago, which means I'm in London for 12-14 hour days three times a week, and when I wfh I'm totally unavailable due to the intensity of the role. I'm not sure what to do or how to help them heal the rift; my husband is mystified by it and doesn't know what to do. My new job means my husband has to carry the domestic load - and has possibly taken my daughter emotionally back to a time when she had to rely on him and he was fairly emotionally absent, so she didn't feel safe... Looking for advice on the best way to respond. Is this like a toddler meltdown, ie - don't give it too much emotional space, nothing terrible has happened, we love you, and we are just going to be by your side while you work through it; or is it something that runs much deeper that needs family therapy to sort out? Apologies for the long post...

What would you want your husband to do if you were the scapegoat @sazzle1970 ? Or if your DDs sibling was?

You do sound incredibly passive and that enables your daughter’s behaviour imo. Neither DH nor I would stand for our DC treating the other as your daughter is. A pp described it as bullying and I agree.

Has her dad spoken to her about that time? Could he speak to her or perhaps write her a letter explaining what was going on for him at the time, what depression does to you and how sorry he is that she was impacted by that? Sometimes a letter is better than talking if you have ASD because you have more time to process it, you can read it alone and go back to it and it's something you can hold on to and read again at a later date. A letter can feel more 'real' and more permanent than words (IMO).

It might also be worth him asking if there's anything he could do that would help her to move past this.

His annoying habits are probably causing her sensory issues and that's why they're bothering her. The sensible thing would just be for one of them to leave the room or for her to consider wearing loops to help block out the noise.

Hmm. What is your husband doing now? Does he work? Has your entire marriage been a pattern of him only being stable when you are carrying every single thing? Earning the money, taking care of the kids, the house, etc? When he’s forced to handle some aspect of it does he collapse again and/or simply drop it and let things be rather shit?

Mental health is never, ever an excuse for abuse or neglect, especially when it comes to children. Is that how he’s framing it? “Sorry about the trauma I caused, but I was depressed.” That really doesn’t cut it. And that’s coming from someone that has suffered lifelong depression and anxiety and had a breakdown.

It’s also quite a drip feed that her brother is autistic. So she’s a glass child and was neglected to the extent that it has caused trauma. She definitely needs a psychologist. The reactions you describe are visceral, such as her being unable to stand him coughing. This suggests that she has actually become repulsed by him, which could be down to her own trauma and resentment or could be due to a feeling of loyalty to you. I suspect she may feel that he takes advantage of you.

While you’re trying to get her in with someone, your husband needs to grow up and stop centering himself in everything. Stop letting the family revolve around him and his mental state. Now that the children are getting older they will see how selfish this is and resent it more and more.

I think this is unfair, yes she is a child and it's about her needs but her dad is a person whose feelings count too. Every child needs to understand this it's called empathy.

Thanks all. I think the different responses on here are a perfect illustration of what’s going on in my own head about this. I’ve just been in to see her, she is angry I haven’t fully supported her and angry that I try and stay neutral, ie validating her feelings, trying to support my husband, actually doing nothing to sort anything out. I asked her what this would look like and she said sending him away for the week! She says she’s really upset that how he was in her childhood had impacted her ability to make friends as a teenager, I think she feels he’s ruined anything where she needs to feel ‘attached’. She does find friendships tricky and has a fear of abandonment. She can’t understand why I’m not angrier with him…

I’m not angrier with him because he is a good person… loyal, hard working, funny, totally invested in the family. BUT he does lack resilience too and can struggle to fully put himself in other people’s shoes

Sounds like she'd rather blame him than accept not everything is his fault, I'd say perhaps the fact she is on the wait list to be assessed for ASD is relevant here; if she is diagnosed perhaps she'll be able to start to come to terms with the fact that he isn't to blame for everything.

Have you explained what he actually subjected her (and you) to during these periods of depression? What actually happened inside the house?

It does sound possible that she is also autistic. And possibly that she’s been doing TikTok research on attachment.

I think a combination of acknowledging her feelings but challenging anything outright nasty, trying to unpick exactly what she thinks and feels, quality time, autism assessment and offer of counselling might be the best way through. And gritting your teeth through the exams.

I recall my Dad taking me out and firmly telling me that I needed to stop being horrible to my Mum around that age.

Good luck!

He might be to blame for some things though

It depends whether you think being poorly is his own fault i guess, there were 2 parents in the household at the time presumably (even though OP worked), even if there is what would him going away for a week solve? Does being nasty to him and also to her mum help change anything?

It sounds like that early period where your husband was unwell was a traumatic time for her that has left its scars on her. Developmentally this was a crucial time for her and will have impacted her relationship with her father and the way she manages her emotions, feels about herself and relates to others. She may feel she caused it, she was a bad child, she wasn’t ‘good enough’ for him to stay well for.

Parental mental issues can have a hugely detrimental effect on children. It impacts their sense of security and safety, they can find it hard to trust and rely on people because they feel insecure about whether that person can hold them, can support them.

Would she consider therapy? There’s no point if she’s not interested but if she is I would seek a therapist who is trauma informed and attachment focused. If she does have ASC then an understanding of that would be helpful too but you might find her difficulties are in the context of trauma and attachment difficulties and not Autism.

Wait, she is on the waiting list for ASD assessment?

You need to just start treating this situation as if she is autistic. Start doing some reading on ASD girls. It’s going to be incredibly enlightening.

Both dd and I are ASD. My husband has tendencies, but isn’t diagnosed. Even if he is, he is male and just different. The way he interacts with dd often sets her off. He thinks he is being casual and light, I point out what he is doing is the absolute best way to ratchet up her anxiety to 11. I have to coach him on how to talk to her to get the best results. That isn’t because he doesn’t love her and it isn’t because he is anything less than a fantastic father. He is wonderful. He just isn’t the best communicator and doesn’t speak ASD teen girl.

to handle this, I have talked to dd about how her dad absolutely loves both her and me, but is absolute rubbish at communicating. It is now a bit of a family joke and he takes some ribbing for it. However, it has helped their relationship. She will often call him out for his bad communication with a joke instead of getting angry.

because here is the real devil in the details. If both of your kids are ASD, your husband probably is too.

Agree with this and that, certainly for the period of your daughter's exams, your husband needs to accept that he can't centre his own needs. In many GCSE households at the moment parents are holding their tongues and cutting their kids some slack given the pressures of exams. Can he not do that and just not ask her for reassurance or politeness or anything else, at least for a month?

@sazzle1970 Be careful with this approach, because just because you love him doesn’t mean that he’s a great parent.

My Mum adored my Dad but as an adult, I’ve sometimes wondered why on earth she had a child with him (I was v. much planned) because wasn’t it obvious that he was too unstable to be a reliable parent? I suspect that it’s because she was a v. strong and capable person with a successful career so she thought that she could hold everything together.

You sound similar to her and she was a wonderful Mum. But your DD won’t see your DH as you do and that’s why I think that family counselling might be good for her to accept him for who he is and forgive him for any past failings.

You seem to expect your DD to not feel her feelings, while you ask her to understand his feelings. The whole dynamic seems focused on your DH's feelings, rather than the needs of the kids.

I hated my dad when I was a teenager. And he hadn't done anything bad. Just anything about him irritated me and made me dislike him and have no time for him. I was awful with back chatting to him. Yet in every other way I was a very well behaved child .
I moved out young and didn't spend much time with him till I was about 23. By which time I had grown up a lot and realised he was not the bad guy I had decided he was. And that in fact whenever I had had any problems or needed help he was always there.
My advice would be for him to show her support and praise and always be there for her when she needs him. And hope that it is just a teenage phase that she will grow out of when these difficult years pass.
I have spoken to others about this in the past and was surprised how many had also felt like this towards one or both parents. And usually for very daft reasons .

And that in fact whenever I had had any problems or needed help he was always there.

@Starlight7080 Yes, this is such an important part of parenting. If her DD doesn’t feel that she can trust and rely on her Dad, it’s v. damaging. So he needs to really work on gaining her trust and showing her that he’s not going to fall apart at the first sign of stress.

Even if we feel like falling apart inside, it’s not fair to show this to our children.

She might have hyper sensitivity to certain noises or sensory experiences, such as misophonia. Could be aggravated by undiagnosed autism or OCD, and she might be highly sensitive and confused by her feelings. I think you need to really get an understanding of what the triggers are and see if she would be open to therapy. As a misophonia and OCD sufferer myself I struggle with certain family members sometimes but am old enough to know those feelings of rage/disgust pass, and I didn’t suffer at such a formative age x x

Your DD is at a difficult age where lots of kids are angry, hurt, confused, resentful, and of course parents are to blame for it all. She may feel overlooked due to your DH actions or it could be because of her sibling needing more attention than her. Maybe she feels embarrassed about his mental health difficulties and him not being the bread winner as a dad is traditionally meant to be. Whatever it is, it’s not something you can fix. Get her a counsellor that she can talk to in confidence - def not family therapy - and let her work through it herself. Your DH has done his best and loves her, and I think one day in the future your DD will realise this and will understand that parents aren’t always perfect. She will come back to him and they will have a good relationship again. In the mean time he needs to take it on the chin as far as possible and continue to tell her that she is loved. You need to support him because what he is going through is tough. I know I’ve been there. Good luck.

Do you think he may be autistic as well? With two children with, or likely to have, ASD it is very likely that either he or you are autistic as well and that will affect the whole dynamic and how each person sees what is happening.

I very rarely say anything like this, but I have a cousin with borderline personality disorder and she is very much like this. To summarise it in the most charitable way I can, she has such high and unrealistic expectations of people and what they'd do if they "really love or care about her", that nobody can ever meet them and then she feels betrayed.

I’d like to know this too. Did he plonk them in front of Peppa Pig whilst he lay in bed depressed which wouldn’t be great but she should be mature enough to understand and forgive now. Or was it something much more serious?

Probably teenager hormones and exam stress are fanning the flames too. Your husband needs to be the grown up and I don’t think you should take on a mediator role. They need to sort themselves out. If he is a loving dad now but struggled 10 to 12 years ago it is disingenuous of your DD to harbour resentment from when she was little more than a toddler. I would ignore the comments about her hating him. Most teenagers throw this at their parents at some point. I am not sure therapy would help at this stage but communication is the key. We all have irritating habits and she can say she doesn’t like him picking his teeth or coughing without necessarily saying she hates him. Similarly it might help if he did stop those behaviours as it is not nice to watch someone picking their teeth. Similarly she can leave the room. I would just tell them both that they can sort out their own differences without you in the middle. She will be an adult in 3 years and he already is so they can both grow up a bit.

Even at the best of times, teenage years and exam stress are v difficult and can lead to all sorts of issues in families. And this is not the best of times.
There are two things going on here. Your daughter’s feelings of being unsupported by your DH -which you believe are valid (was he actually diagnosed with clinical depression?) - and your daughter’s manipulation of your relationship with your DH.
It’s not unusual for girls to feel unhappy with their fathers as they hit teenage years. But this is something more. Your DH needs to sort out his own relationship with his daughter. You really can’t fix this. You need to concentrate on your relationship with her and your relationship with him.
Your daughter is trying to manipulate you into disliking your husband and siding with her against him. It’s divide and rule. You can make it clear that you understand she feels unsupported by her father and you can acknowledge that these feelings are valid and you can apologise that it was tough for her growing up and let her know that you are emotionally there for her but you can also make it clear that you love your husband, you believe him to be a good man and a loving father and that you are compassionate towards an illness that he cannot help.
You can say that doesn’t mean he does not need to accept responsibility for his part in allowing the relationship to deteriorate and that he should definitely apologise and talk things through with her, and really listen to what she has to say and do his best to make amends. But you also need to help her understand that she can’t just use him as a punchbag for any reason when she feels frustrated and upset. And that you won’t accept hateful or mean language or actions. You need to set boundaries- this is a child crying out for them and pushing to see the extent of her power.
I would approach all this in a calm, kind way. Don’t worry about speaking out or disciplining her when she behaves badly. A strong and loving parent is both supportive and sets boundaries.
If she gets a diagnosis of ASD, ask for help and support for the family. Ask for therapy for DD. She is at a time when she is starting to separate from you both. She needs to understand how to take responsibility for her own happiness and actions. Also the fear of having a diagnosis may be leading her to “blame” your husband for all her woes. It may be easier than facing up to the fear of “being different”.
finally, your career and your happiness also matter. Don’t sacrifice it for something you cannot control. Be present for your daughter when you can be. But don’t give up a job you love (if you do) because a child who has another parent at home demands it. Good luck OP