Son is going off the rails

[MadeleineMummy]

I am a single parent (widowed when my children were young) and have raised my children myself. I am a professional and work long hours and had a childminder and a au pair when the children were young. Now they are in their teens and my oldest has graduated from University it is just us.

Both my daughters are aspirational and want to have professional careers, my son of late said he isn’t going to concentrate on his GCSEs this year as people don’t need qualifications in the real world and he will make money hustling and doing stuff. He has started to wear urban street wear and wanders around the house when he is in with his hands down his baggy tracksuit bottoms. His grammar has deteriorated and he talks with an urban accent using slang and swear words. It feels like an alien has landed in our house. He is rude to his sisters and calls the bitches and refuses to say please or thank you to them. He often uses derogatory urban slang to them. He has massively changed I don’t know what to do. He steals from the house, he leaves it in a mess, he vapes and treats all the women in the house disrespectfully. None of my friend’s children behave like him and they are all studious and respectful. He takes no interest in the world. My daughters are vegetarian and environmentalists. They take an interest in politics and campaign for issues they believe in. My son has no interest in the world or anything outside his narrow frame of reference and gets takeaway chicken and leaves the bones on the floor of the kitchen.

we have had family meetings to discuss our values of respect, honesty and personal responsibility and he says why should he respect our values as we do not respect his as no one likes drill music. We have tried to argue that this is not a value but a musical taste and people can have different tastes. But he does not seem to listen to reason. He gets angry all the time and his default state is anger to me or his sisters. I cannot get through to him. He does not seem to want to listen to me. I have tried to get an appointment with Cahms but the waiting list is over a year. He goes to school OK and school seem not to be overly worried about him even though he does not do any homework and wants to drop out after GCSEs this year. I don’t want him to screw up his life but don’t know what I can do to help him.

You might be better asking @MNHQ to move this over to the Teens Section.

Having read your post, do you think he's on drugs? Especially as he's stealing?

I think it's time for locks on the DD's bedroom doors and on yours too.

I'd also be talking to Pastoral Care at school and making them aware of how he's behaving. Is there a Male Teacher he respects that could talk to him?

@MNHQ Can you move this to the teens section. Please.

Hi OP

We've moved it for you now!

Regrettably, I would suggest checking his phone to see who he in touch with and searching his room.

I would also look to spend as much time with him as possible to counter any bad influences and restrict his time with them. Perhaps take up a sport/activity that you can do together.

Continuous positive reinforcement as well.

Such a difficult time, hope he comes around

I have tried to get his phone when he is asleep and he is a light sleeper and gets really angry. He is about a foot taller than me and quite big and can be really scary when he is angry. He steals money from my handbag or his sisters and he denies it and blames them for stealing from each other or me. He is a real thug and frightens all of us. He is not gallant or gentlemanly like his father was. I don’t know who his friends are as he says he cannot bring them home as we would embarrass him because we are just sad and boring. I am at a loss to deal with him and seem to have nowhere to turn to. I don’t really have a male friend who can talk to him that he would listen to. I even considered starting to go to church to get the priest to talk to him as I am at my wits end. The school seem to not want to help neither do the local authority S he has not really got into trouble or fights in school. He is supposedly very sullen and moody and keeps himself to himself. Apparently his class teacher told me the girls think he is attractive because he is really sullen. But this is all I get from the school and the fact that he is not doing badly but not excelling. His older sister was a brilliant student and so is his younger sister.

Locks on bedroom doors work ime. If he doesn't respect you as a dm withdraw your 'services'. No cooking or laundry done.. Back chat? Change the WiFi password.. Stop any allowances. At 16 /17 my dc had part time jobs..

This sounds really tough, have you looked into Early help via social care in your area? You can self refer and they should be able to tell you what help is available?

I would second the person who suggested talking to the Pastoral Care team at your son's school. They aren't just there for school related issues. My gut feeling is that either he suddenly has a different friend group at school or has become entangled with other people online. He may be watching content online that is glamourising this type of behaviour. His blatant disrespect towards yourself and his sisters, because you're female and using derogatory terms is worrying. I work in a school myself and we have Safeguarding Training for radicalisation - I'm not suggesting for one moment that this is something he is involved with but the changes in behaviour, speaking, anger because you disagree with him, unable to see your view point, change in views, dressing different - all lead to someone who is being heavily influenced by a group of people or person. For me it is red flags. Speak to the school as they can flag this behaviour as a concern and may be able to find a member of staff to mentor him.

Ime of teen ds's (7) he is just being a typical selfish git. He will ime grow out of it.

He needs a positive male role model ASAP! A lot of this is pretty normal teen boy behaviour but they need a decent bloke to guide them out of it in my experience. Who would this be in your life? An uncle/grandad who could scoop him up and take him to something they'd both enjoy? Some kind of hobby where this would happen, cadets, martial arts, even boxing? Or anything else? He sounds sad and lost underneath it all.

When my boys are like this I try very hard to reconnect with how they were when they were little, in my mind, how fragile they can be and how much they need their mum too, even when it really does not seem like it. It is tricky, but just spending time with him would be so helpful to him, even if he doesn't open up much for a while.

I know others may disagree with this but I did open my ds snapchat and it gave me some pointers to what he was going through emotionally that just helped me ask the right questions.

Also, your DS has had a big loss early in life, and sometimes these early losses can't be processed until adolescence. I wonder of he would be open to seeing a male counsellor or psychotherapist. If unaffordable and camhs wait too long, look into a bereavement charity such as winstons wish

Last thing. I am so guilty of this myself which is why I pass it on...Don't compare him with his sisters. Just appreciate and love him for himself (and yes I know how hard that may feel sometimes)

I'd give your DD's a lock on their bedroom door and one for you too. If I was you when he's at school I'd check his room for drugs. I'd also reprimand him every time he was rude to his sisters. If all of his friends are studious who is he hanging around with now?

’We have tried to argue that this is not a value but a musical taste and people can have different tastes.’ Reads very much like you and your daughters have forged an alliance against him and are patronising towards him. Work on forging a healthy mother-son relationship with him. He is most likely rebelling against your family dynamic and expectations.

As much as this must be a living nightmare for you, I think this is massive expression of his unhappiness and a cry for help.

There's a lot to untangle, he's obviously fallen in with the "wrong crowd" or is being influenced by SM.

When I was about his age, my mum was very seriously mentally ill. It made me feel very isolated from all my lovely "normal" friends with their "normal" families and I gravitated towards the "bad girls", partly because they accepted me and didn't care about my family and partly I think because I was hurt and confused and I guess I didn't have much feeling of self worth. Also, my mum just wasn't mentally or physically present and my dad was distracted by worrying about my mum, so I think I felt abandoned at a time when I actually needed a lot of stability.

Bad behaviour, whatever our age, and regardless of if we should know better is always an expression of our feelings, and often feelings we are unable to articulate, or perhaps even understand ourselves.

Do you have the financial wherewithal to be able to get him sessions with a private psychologist?

I don't have a teenager yet, but my brother is 7yrs younger than me so my only advice is based on that. From 15 he was absolutely vile. Lots of problems with behaviour at home, friends, he now says recreational drugs. At age 24 he suddenly popped out of it almost overnight. Just came into the kitchen and started chatting. All of our jaws hit the floor. It might be age / development related so you might need to approach it from the view of weathering a storm and mitigating damage. Just my opinion.

He's 15/16 I'm guessing.

I have 2 15 year olds. This is what I would do - granted, I get it might not be as easy for you as for me.

I'd be saying I'm unhappy with his behaviour and as I pay for his phone, he's not having it until I say so, as it's quite clear he's being influenced by some incel crap and frankly, I'm not having it. If he leaves his crap all over the place - including chicken bones - I'll gather them up and put them in his bed unless he tidies them up. I will not tolerate disrespectful language to me or his sisters (brothers in this case but you get the jist!) and the more he does it, the longer he will be without a phone. I would also talk to school and tell him I'm doing it because his behaviour and thoughts are disgraceful.

If he somehow manages to get another phone, I'd know it was from gang behaviour and I would seek help from the police or a local support group as that's way outside my remit.

I have always policed online behaviour though, so while I know they'll see stuff I can't control on other's devices, they can't at home or on their own so hopefully it's limited. I've always tried to instill a really strong feminist angle to everything as well, if they dared say anything derogatory to or about me or another woman I would come down on them like a ton of bricks.

I will say my sons haven't had to contend with the loss of a parent so feel free to disregard everything I've put up there, but I know my kids, they don't like getting bollocked but it does tend to sink in. Softly softly doesn't - but one big bang does. If that makes sense!

Not really, musical taste is really a taste and not a value. My eldest listens to Joni Mitchell, Lenard cohen, Rammstein my youngest to Taylor Swift. I appreciate all children have different tastes. I think modern music is anything after Mahler. These are not values such as empathy, tolerance and a sense of justice. They are tastes.

my son’s taste in music with lyrics that revolve around stabbing people based on where they live or from acquiring wealth through robbing, drug dealing and coercion of women into prostitution while not my taste or chiming with my sense of values is something I chose to ignore as it is part of his growing up process and sense of rebellion and resistance toward the values that I espouse. However, pointing out that drug dealing is not a viable lifestyle or that misogyny is not an ideal characteristic that enamours a young man to women is not ganging up on my son. It is something that my daughters and I feel strongly about. Voicing our values is also not ganging up on him but trying to instil some of the values that we have as a family in a supportive and constructive manner during family discussions, while having an intelligent discourse and exchange of ideas to understand why he believes and acts the way he does.

Before I try to answer, can you possibly tell me why you believe that he is stealing.. What is it that he or the others have said? Also when you speak to him isit alone or are the sister(s) in the background?

Don't think they would do anything... Not that his behaviour is ok but there are kids his age out there selling/doing drugs assaulting random people etc. They're not going to spend time on a moody boy who calls his sisters names and leaves chicken bones on the floor not that that disrespectful behaviour is ok at all.

Even if you could get counsellors shrinks etc etc it wouldn't matter if he didn't want to engage

No he won't.

If this isn't nipped in the bud now, he will turn into a horrendous misogynist, because he's already on that path now.

@MadeleineMummy

You need to put your foot down.

You need to confiscate his phone and look at it. I know that's easier said that done, but you need to. It sounds like he's on some Andrew Tate bullshit, or as someone else has said, incel ideology. Change the WiFi password, go into his room and confiscate any gaming or TV/computer stuff. Do this when he's not in the house. Lock it away.

If he gets violent at any point, call the police. If he wants to act the way he does, then he needs to meet the consequences of that.

It's not always possible to do the softly softly calm approach, because it sounds like he's checked out of being reasonable (I know reasonable and teenager aren't always compatible in the same sentence), so continued behaviour like this needs to be met with actual consequences. Confiscate. Tell him if he wants his things back, he has to change his behaviour. He is under YOUR roof, not you under his. Remind him of that. Again, if he gets violent then call the police. This is not an unreasonable thing to do if you have a potentially violent teen.

If you have the money to get him into therapy then do that, but enough is enough.

Huge sympathy op and can offer no advice as a child free person. Worst nightmare.

From friends' experience Protect your daughters. There will be drugs in this.

My daughters have had money, headphones, apple chargers, etc going missing. I have lost money from my bag, I took out cash for my window cleaner who was coming the next day and the cash had disappeared. My children get cash as well as money onto their cards each week to pay for stuff. My son’s money always goes as I can monitor his account. He always has some new toy such as a drone, computer games, trackers, hoodies, trainers etc and when I ask him about it he says he buys and sells stuff at school such as his old games and trainers. He gets really angry and defensive and storms out of the house whenever I try to have a rational discussion with him. He never seems to have a coherent discussion or make any sense. He stinks all the time and does not wash or brush his teeth and when I ask him he says I am getting at him and hits the walls ans storms off. He makes dents in the walls and throws things around and thinks he can do what he wants by getting angry. He is already bigger than everyone else but up to now he just hits inanimate objects although he held my daughter down and pushed his fist in her face when she accused him of stealing cash from her room that she wanted to go shopping with and I had to pull him off and threaten to call the police.

This sounds terrifying for you and your daughters and you do need to protect them.

I think in your circumstances I would be calling the school and asking for their help. There was a boy in my eldest's year who was like this and he ended up boarding for a while and the school were helpful and got one of the male staff to mentor him - he has turned a corner now. His father wasn't present and was it seemed just full of anger that he didn't know how to deal with.

Good luck but do persevere with school and maybe a call to the GP to point you in the direction of someone who can help.

It needs to be made clear to him there will be consequences to his behaviour - he can not be allowed to terrorise you all. I would also be very concerned as to who he is mixing with and if they are likely to have access to your house.

I presume he's trying to find his 'tribe' and has chosen to go down the 'urban' route. I'm guessing he's being influenced by peers and stuff online. I hope you can speak to him about what he wants to do if not GCSEs.

Presumably a technical subject, is he into making music, working in tech? Fixing/building things? He legally must do something education wise until he's 18. Though throwing the idea of breaking the law into it probably won't help.
Is he using drugs, drinking, doing petty crime?

I hope he can find the right path. It is a difficult age especially for young boys sometimes. So don't turn your back on him.

Sounds like he is involved in county lines, u need to get it sorted before it’s completely out of hand.

Thank you for explaining it. I know that must be hard. I just felt I needed to rule out any judgement that it must be your son, because girls don't lie. In that case I'm afraid to say that i think needs stronger boundaries. I wouldn't worry about the smell, that will sort itself out eventually. I think that the best thing is to not engage with trying to have conversations or saying things where you the word I is used. "I'm worried" will push him as he will immediately go into being nagged mode.
Below is an example of how I've seen similar dealt with:
Firstly get locks on everyone's doors except for his. When he says that's not fair. You have to be direct "you'll get a lock when you i can trust you". Do not engage further unless he asks Why don't you trust me. Then keep it short like "I don't trust you because you lie, physically hit my house and my daughters". ( hope you see that I'm trying to make it about your and his relationship, and effectively you are alpha he is beta in that idiot Tates words).
I know this may come across like training a dog, but for many teen boys their hormonal moods make them act like dogs. Happy go lucky or bot your head off, snap when defensive, etc....
As a teenage boy it doesn't take much to try to be a bully instead of being bullied, and bullies at school can mean bullied at home or vica versa..
I hate to say it but he is trying to fill the vacuum of his dad in my opinion, and he doesn't realise some of what he's doing is because he is lost and angry.
If he does something good like defend you or shows a marked improvement it could be worth saying to him that you think his dad would be proud of him based on his reaction to that you willknow if he's a scared boy wanting that relationship or not.