How to teach your child to believe in things that you really don't?

[JazbayGrapes]

Think school.
That work assigned is important.
That obeying the rules is important.
That getting on with you peers is important.

Other than "you will need some qualifications to show on your cv" i can't think of anything else.

My kid hates school. I hated it too. Even though academically i was top of the class and went to university.

But you wouldn't have even got to the interview stage without the qualifications first!

Except the employers barely glance at your official qualifications. They'll show more interest in your hobbies than your GCSCEs

I wouldn’t say that was true for any job I d ever gone for!

Exactly!

No employer has ever asked me about my hobbies.
My degree, on the other hand, has been crucial.

Nope. Nor me, nor any doctor, teacher, barrister, optician, dentist, etc etc

You got a degree. You obviously think that work assigned is important.
However, if your child doesn't like school and you're in agreement, then take them out and home school them.

You don't believe that getting along with your peers is important? In most occupations you have to work with and get along with peers.

I don't like the parking rules in my town. However, I'm clever enough to realise that if I don't comply, I'll get fined. So I make my choice.

A lot of teachers set homework because the school policy is to set homework and they'll get in trouble if they don't.

At secondary it is not always marked (or more often these days it is a self marking homework website)

For some subjects little and often really does help you learn - languages, maths etc.

However again telling the difference between useful homework and not useful homework is a life skill.

My DS when he changed schools in year 9 had to do German for a year. The rest of the class has been studying it since year 7. He had no clue. He just used google translate. Teacher was happy, he was happy. He dropped German at gcse (was clearly never going to take it)

Employers dont need to ask about your qualifications, they'll see the certificates later or find out you lied. If you didnt have them you wouldnt be interviewed or you'd be asked about why.

Money gives you much more choice in your life and the way to get money is to either start your own business or work for it. An education might teach you to think and therefore help you get business ideas and if you need to earn money first it will be much easier if you have qualifications. It also helps if you get on with other people.

But without the qualifications on your CV you wouldn't have for the interview in the first place! Of course they aren't going to ask you about trigonometry - they just want to see you have GCSE maths . They probably figure chatting about your hobbies and bit at interview may 'break the ice' and relax you. But they are not going to offer you the job because of your interest in horses/theatre/whatever .

also, you never know what is going to be useful to you in life
I did a level biology many years ago- turns out I needed it to retrain aged 50
I also did a level french (in the days when we did proper grammar etc) - now I find even though it was ages ago I am more prepared to have a go communicating with french speakers at work than those with more recent qualifications
OTOH, I do wish I had paid more attention in geography and could understand the physical landscape around me.

I also agree that telling kids that the rules don't apply to them is a recipe for disaster at the societal level. Teach them that some rules are wrong and need changing for sure, and teach them constructive ways to do that.

It always reminds me of those "sad face" articles where some parent wants to take a case to the European Court of Human Rights because their daughter wants to have pink braids and the school bans them 😂

I think reframe these discussions as having value for their own sake, not just how they can benefit you at work or school. That's a really dry way of looking at life.

I suppose there's a lot of value in doing well at school and learning for learning's sake, having or developing a thirst for knowledge rather than just doing homework to toe the line. The world is a much more interesting place when you understand how things work (I'm someone who came to science later).

Getting on with people and being diplomatic doesn't have to be done in a boring placatory way. You can put your points across, be assertive and limit time spent with bores and still come across well if you have good manners and treat people well. It helps interactions and again, makes the world more interesting if you are comfortable conversing with anyone from anywhere. That doesn't mean talking about yourself to anyone. Learning social skills and good conversation young is a huge benefit at work and for making friends in all walks of life. How many threads on here are about trying to date people whose idea of good Comms is a dick pic?

Rules, obeying, questioning, looking at the sources of law is a good way of learning critical thinking and having really stretching discussions. Encourage him to think about why laws are in place, and how a breach could affect others. Also to think for himself. Non negotiables that prevent serious harm such as drinking and driving Vs uniform rules that are intended to give an impression of accord, preparedness etc but does it really matter if he wears the wrong colour socks to PE?

Also re doing your best at school, as PP says, you never know what you'll be good at so give things a go and don't be afraid to be seen to try. He may be amazing at physics, languages, trigonometry, textile design, writing, which would open all sorts of exciting prospects. If you're sat at the back sniggering and worrying about being cool, you might miss out on a hidden talent.

Everybody knew that the point of particular homework assignments was so you have less time to play.

I'm a teacher. Some of your points about school are bang on. This one's ridiculous though. Why on earth would teachers ' aim be for you to have less time to play at home? Teachers set homework mostly because they have to, as it's school policy.

I'm pretty cynical about a lot that goes on in schools these days, but we've mostly been pretty honest with our dc about what is bullshit and what isn't. We've made sure they understand why schools do a lot of the bullshit they do though - i.e. either because the government/Ofsted/the need to compete with other local schools makes them need to do it, or because they genuinely think it will improve things in the school (even if they are quite often wrong about this).

What I would never tell my dc is that schools make rules in order to piss students off, or because they enjoy the (frankly non-existent) power it gives them. Because those things aren't true, in spite of what some people say, often because they are (sometimes understandably) bitter about their own school experience.

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What I would never tell my dc is that schools make rules in order to piss students off,

I've heard it many times times, that "school uniform is for students to have something to rebel against". So how is that not deliberately antagonizing kids as well as wasting teachers' time and energy?

It was exactly the same with homework back in my day, and that's what enabled me to have a little source of secret income.

But school is a community and communities have agreed standards of behaviour. That's all rules are.

They may seem pointless but there's almost always a reasonable - I don't say good - reason. For eg uniform, it's about identifying as a member of that community, about avoiding conflict (eg if everyone came in wearing football colours), and about creating a judgement-free space where people aren't kvetching about clothes (rich and poor kids wear the same).

yes, some schools are ridiculous about uniform, don't send your kid there then - that is the rules of that community. You make a choice to join that community, you make a choice to abide by that community's standards.

Sure, engage critical thinking, sure try and figure out why a rule exists, most of the time you'll come back to because if everyone in this large community did whatever they wanted in this situation, it would be chaos. Then work out what's more important, teach your kids that you catch more flies with honey - being able to get along with people and work things out collaboratively is what separates us from the machine.

Oh and don't ever be taken in by the cool kids who 'aren't doing any revising...'

@JazbayGrapes your outlook on this is quite unusual. It’s also quite privileged. You have already reaped the benefits of your education. Where do you think you would be if you hadn’t ’conformed’ and acquired all your qualifications?
I doubt you’d be earning whatever it is that you earn and be in a position to tell your children not to bother.
In my experience some of the most hardworking kids are those who come from a background where the education you’re disregarding is the privilege of the few not a right.

You sound like you're aiming really low for your kid to be honest. Are you trying to be the 'cool' parent? Being part of society and resilience are both very important parts of life and growing up. We all have to do things we don't like, almost every day.

Also, the school curriculum may occasionally feel arbitrary or useless but more general knowledge is always as a good thing. It exposes you to things you would never seek out on your own because they are naturally not an area of interest. I believe in education for education's sake and not living in an echo chamber.

Yep! Just shut up and wear the uniform. If your hair is the only way you can express yourself, you have bigger problems.

I've heard it many times times, that "school uniform is for students to have something to rebel against". So how is that not deliberately antagonizing kids as well as wasting teachers' time and energy?

I think because this is an oversimplification of the argument.

Nobody needs to create reasons for teenagers to rebel. If you want them to rebel you can just leave them to it and somebody will find something. In fact, ideally, in terms of teachers' lives being easier, you would have no rebellion at all, so trying to entice them to rebel makes no logical sense.

So the point of uniform being a place for teenagers to rebel is in theory a sort of distraction or containment of teenage rebellion. The assumption (may be correct, may be bollocks) is that teenagers want/need to rebel/will rebel regardless of what you do, and to some extent that their rebellion is meaningless and random.

So if you give them uniform to rebel against, then in theory they are hitting that "need to rebel" and will be satisfied or tired out from doing that and are less likely to call the teacher a prick, fight each other, refuse to do their work, watch youtube on their phones in class or any number of things which will actually cause a problem because they disrupt other students or threaten the order of the school environment. Wearing the wrong uniform is a very harmless rebellion and if it satisfies an "urge" to rebel, then in theory, great, because even though some teacher time is taken up by policing ties and so on, it doesn't really harm anybody and is less time than would be taken up by teachers trying to deal with bigger problems.

Kind of like the toddler parenting technique where you try to stop them saying "no" to everything all the time by offering them choices, but the choices are something that you control. (e.g. red t-shirt or blue t-shirt, carrots or peas). Toddler gains the illusion of autonomy but adult ultimately retains control.

Or the other justification for this is the idea that if you give them something that they can easily rebel about, it allows you to readily demonstrate that there are consequences to rebellion, which may help deter rebellion in general (there is a bit of a "Broken Window" feeling to this).

I don't know if either of the arguments have merit or not, but that is what people mean when they say that uniform is to give pupils something to rebel against.

I've heard it many times times, that "school uniform is for students to have something to rebel against". So how is that not deliberately antagonizing kids as well as wasting teachers' time and energy?

Just because you've 'heard it many times' , that doesn't make it true. Of course it's not true! I'm against uniform myself, but the reason you give is ridiculous and would be completely counterproductive for schools. Why on earth would they want to give students 'something to rebel against' and waste their own teachers' time? Utter, utter nonsense.

Here are the justifications for having uniform:

• Avoids competitive fashionableness and the resulting bad feeling for poorer students
• Avoids inappropriate clothing
• Promotes school spirit (bollocks, obviously)
• Trains students in how to present themselves in the wotkplace (outdated)
• Makes it easier to identify which school students go to if they are seen misbehaving in public

Looks smart (debatable)

Here are the real reasons schools have uniform:

• Prospective parents like it (until they have to pay for it, replace it when their dc lose it, and their dc get in trouble for not wearing it properly)
• People are (for some reason) fooled by the idea that smart uniform = good school and well-behaved students
• It's traditional and the norm. Most schools would not dare buck the trend, as it would probably put parents off

It's marketing, basically.

Oh I forgot the most annoying supposed justification for uniform: that if you drill the minor things (like wearing the right colour socks), that will somehow train kids to obey the bigger, more important rules. Imo this is the opposite of the truth. Being draconian over petty things makes kids respect the rules less, not more.