How to teach your child to believe in things that you really don't?

[JazbayGrapes]

Think school.
That work assigned is important.
That obeying the rules is important.
That getting on with you peers is important.

Other than "you will need some qualifications to show on your cv" i can't think of anything else.

My kid hates school. I hated it too. Even though academically i was top of the class and went to university.

I told mine (to quote an author I love) the only way out is through. That the government has decided to test you and this is how they do it with SATs and GCSES and they can then compare you to everyone else in the country. GCSEs are a game, learn to play the game (AOs, mark scheme, specific words) get the highest score, the highest score opens the most doors ie want to go to X uni to do Y course? If you have 3 A star predictions then nothing is off limits to you to apply. Got BBB and they want AAB then you can't apply and will need to apply somewhere else. These are choices. Degree apprenticeships are hard to come by unlike the incredible choice of degrees or jobs.

Even this week a 41 year old woman posted saying she will probably have to show her GCSE grades for a new job to prove she has maths and English grade C or above.

You may not agree with rules but for school you don't have a choice so suck it up. Out in the real world you might be given a uniform to wear or a dress code but you can choose where to apply to work, when you are an adult and no longer a child.

Getting on with people, this isn't just a school thing is it. This applies to family, people who marry into your family, work colleagues, your best mate's husband, your best mate's other friends etc. How you treat people you don't like is a measure of your character because not everyone will like you and hopefully they too have some manners and decorum in respect of how they treat you.

I don't, I would never teach blind obedience, but that sometimes we just have to get on with it as a means to an end to give ourselves more choices.

It worked with DD1 as her school was always nice and reasonable. DD2 went to a typically draconian academy as they so often are these days and didn't get on with it at all (not disobedient at all but it made her extremely anxious) and is now home schooled.

This is an excellent post.

OP, you are mistaken if you think all of us who send our kids to school do so in a Big-Brothered-Out state of brainwashed bliss with every aspect of contemporary society.

We don't.

Out kids, like us, live in an imperfect world and hopefully learn to navigate it.

My daughter for example knows I think the vast majority of the homework she is set is pointless, and that I believe some of the teachers teaching her are hypocritical idiots, and in the case of management quite terrifyingly morally bankrupt (I only know this because I taught at the same school for 3 years).

She also agrees with me that it is the best available school for her to get the best qualifications, given her abilities, and have the best chance of a happy life.

For God's sake, your child is your child. Why wouldn't you be honest with them?

I think some rules are silly, but I also think if you want the benefits of an institition e.g. the education offered by a school, then it is generally part of the agreement to accept those rules (if they are not harmful) and you should honour that, even if you think it is inconvenient or silly. I think the big picture is worth looking at - yes, it absolutely makes no difference to an individual child's ability to learn if they wear black socks instead of white, but having a teacher's time taken up by trying to enforce uniform infractions is a waste of everyone's time when you are there to learn - it makes more sense simply to wear the uniform-stipulated socks, regardless of the reason for the uniform rule.

And I know that equally, you could argue that you could avoid the waste of the teacher's time by having the sock rule be abolished, but since I don't have direct control over that rule, whether the teacher will spend time policing it, and neither does my child, the most sensible/logical short term course of action is to accept that this school has a uniform and I agreed to the uniform when I signed up there.

I would encourage my child to take actions like joining the student council (if there is one) or follow other appropriate avenues (e.g. writing letters to the head) to challenge rules they disagree with, rather than make issues for the teachers day to day. I might commiserate with them about how petty it is to have a rule about sock colour but I think a sock colour protest in the middle of class is inappropriate. It's not that important of an issue.

Even this week a 41 year old woman posted saying she will probably have to show her GCSE grades for a new job to prove she has maths and English grade C or above.

Despite my university education, i needed to do a certificate in both maths and English as i didn't go to school in the UK. So there's that... (another example of pointless waste of time and resources and not just mine - somebody else was paying for it)
But how do you "sell" other subjects? That it will be nice to win a pub quiz someday...

I told mine that some rules are sensible and fair. Some are pointless and harmless. Some are officious and ridiculous. Some are unjust and need to be challenged.

He needed to work out which were which, and act according to his conscience.

Seems to have worked out OK. He’s a tattooed and pierced metal-head graduate, a successful company director, and a family man with a strong sense of social justice grounded in material reality.

I'm an employer, and I'm certainly interested in gcse, and university will be interested

Yes, that sort of thing. It's helpful to tell your kids what you think is and isn't important, but at the end of the day, let them decide for themselves what's important and take the consequences.

For example, my dsis used to bunk off school and go to the art museum to draw. Our mum (who was a teacher) pointed out that if she didn't turn up at school to achieve the grades she needed to go to university, she might regret it. At the same time, Mum said she could see that most of what we were doing at school was busywork and that there was a good chance going to the museum instead was more educational, and dsis could make her own choice. She couldn't/wouldn't shield dsis from whatever punishment the school might impose, but she also wouldn't dole out extra punishment at home or even express disapproval.

As for me, I always did everything I was told at school, but I regret it. It took a toll on me and certainly didn't set me up for life. I left school early to go to university, which was utterly brilliant and completely unlike school. I home educated my own kids. Through living in society and going to clubs and whatnot, they've learned to obey relevant rules, and do as they're told at uni and by employers. School wasn't necessary for acquiring those skills.

That's nonsense. In many sectors you don't put your hobbies on your CV and you won't be asked about your hobbies. Many employers screen academics before inviting to interview, so you need to pass the threshold.

For God's sake, your child is your child. Why wouldn't you be honest with them?
Because i'm quite dishonest at times and i'm not sure it's the best example to set.
Like - i used to do other kids' homeworks for cash. Bad? I guess. Ashamed? Not a bit. Everybody knew that the point of particular homework assignments was so you have less time to play.

I teach my kids about the importance of society. I tell them it’s easy to be selfish and not give a shit about other people and community but it’s HARD to be kind and thoughtful and respectful and look after your community.

THAT’S why rules are important. That’s why education is important and that’s why the West struggles so much with a breaking down of society and traditions as there are so many people who raise their kids to do as they please.

You really believe that teachers bothered to waste their own time setting homework assignments just so that that children in their class would have less time to play??? Why would they not want them to play?

Surely you don't actually believe your child will have a better life if they get no qualifications, are suspended and eventually expelled from school and also have no friends?

Getting qualifications opens doors and gives options, following school rules gets you to the end of school (with qualifications hopefully) and getting on with your peers makes the days pass more pleasantly and often actually enjoyably. None of that is a lie.

You really believe that teachers bothered to waste their own time setting homework assignments just so that that children in their class would have less time to play??? Why would they not want them to play?

In my time and place - it was exactly that - "so you don't run around in the streets all day". And teachers didn't even bother actually looking at the work. As long as it was turned in.

A school trying to herd, teach and keep safe 800 kids needs rules.

I just tell my kid to stay under the radar, do as you're told and it will all be over in a couple of years and that's the time that you can wear what you like, learn what you like etc.

I agree with the PP who said just get on with it because in the end you’ll end up with more options that can buy you more freedom

It's just doubly hard for teens in school as they are just blossoming into their characters and want to express themselves - but school is fairly restrictive. Always has been. It's only a few years - it isn't gonna kill kids to follow the rules for the good of the whole school. School isn't purely about the individual, it need to work as a whole.

Petty uniform rules are annoying, I agree. I see some value in uniform and consistency and also agree that it's totally stupid. BUT... as I think@BertieBotts said, it's part of the contract - you get the education and all that comes with it and some of the rules are just part of it. Because the rules might be stupid for you but presumably the school believes that overall, it's better for the school and most studients (oh, and agree with the poster who said if your child feels that strongly - join the student council or whatever to lobby for change).

You are 100% wrong about jobs. In fact, these days, you are not suggested to include hobbies on your CV at all unless it's relevant - eg you are a leader for guides which shows you can take ownership, with young people etc. Or you run marathons and have raised £30000 for prostate cancer or whatever. Reading/cooking/cycling/golf are largely irrelevant.

at the end of the day, our society is set up in a fairly standardised way. that's not ideal. DS has ADHD and frankly, school is NOT set up for him in a good way. But he has to get through it because those are the options. Then, as he gets older, he can make more choices and have more control but he has to learn how to operate in THIS context first.

DD2 wouldn't have had had a "better life" if she carried on going to school then not getting any qualifications because she couldn't learn, plus with the effect it was having on her mental health I worried about the long term impact of that also.

For a lot of kids it is not just about knuckling down and getting on with it.

As not particularly "alternative" professional parents who got on well at school ourselves and used to be big supporters of state education it took a big change in our thinking and expectations and the main thing was that we had our daughter's back and support her outside the standard school expectations.

It's a life lesson. We all have to deal with this stuff.

The truth is that someone has to be in charge and will therefore come up with rules/instructions/processes/whatever. That is their perogative as the person in charge. Looking from the outside, their decision may appear bad but 99.9% of leaders don't deliberately make bad decisions and sometimes they have information or experience that those looking from outside lack. And leadership isn't always easy - sometimes (usually?) there's no obvious perfect decision

Hmm, hobbies. If I'm selecting for interview I want to know what training, qualifications and experience they have directly related to the role.

I couldn't give a monkeys if they played the piano at the Albert hall, are the goalie for Spurs or fish for sharks at the weekend.

You seem to have a very weird idea of how school works and/or you had a particlarly shitty childhood/education.

I can assure you that DS' work is looked at - not all of it, you're right, but the bulk of it.

I am not a big believer in large amounts of homework (and of course, different children learn in different ways) but there's no doubt that at secondary school, some homework is a useful way to embed learning and practice applying it. It's also useful as a way for a child to consider the material at their own pace.

And this idea that the subjects they learn is irrelevant is also odd to me. As much as anything it's about learning generally about the world, culture, society we live in. this makes them more rounded. Helps them to discover things they are interested in and/or good at. Helps to make our children more useful members of our society who can make considered, thoughtful choices whether that's about the job they'll do, the life they'll need or the political party they'll vote for.

School subjects? It comes back again to the school requirement thing.

If you want to get English and Maths GCSE, most state schools won't let you only do those subjects, except perhaps as an external candidate via home education.

If you want the benefit and convenience of the teaching that school offers for maths and English but nothing else, then you have to work within the options that they offer.

You don't have to pass the other classes, but it's important to recognise that other pupils will want to pass those classes, so it's not on to disrupt their learning time, and honestly it seems a bit silly if you're stuck in the class anyway not to participate. Some schools might also have a sort of minimum achievement or behaviour requirement which, again, you need to engage with this if you want the maths/English.

Except the employers barely glance at your official qualifications. They'll show more interest in your hobbies than your GCSCEs

Don't be silly - plenty of jobs need certain qualifications.

It is hard to find reasons good enough sometimes, I totally agree.

Try answering to a load of kids who will be lucky to get a Grade 4 pass at maths why learning Pythagoras Theorem is important! It isn't and will make absolutely no difference to their lives.

The only time in my (then) 30 year work life that I was asked to show my O Level certificates, was when I was 46 and went for a job as a TA. Needless to say, I had no idea where they were!

A good work ethic is the only reason I could give to those kids - it shows potential employers that you will work hard to understand something even if you don't see the importance straight away.

My reasoning to them sometimes worked ...😂

Don't be silly - plenty of jobs need certain qualifications.

Officially yes. On written applicataions/cvs - true. List qualifications first. But at interviews is a totally different thing - i was asked about my favourite books and travel destinations and my pets' names, not what do i remember from trigonometry.

Except the employers barely glance at your official qualifications. They'll show more interest in your hobbies than your GCSCEs

Well surely that depends in your future job and employer?

There are lots of jobs where qualifications are essential.

Ime, most jobs these days at least require GCSEs in English and Maths at grade C/4 minimum.