How do you cope with rudeness/swearing/violence?

[Sinequa]

My eldest is 12 and is in Yr 7. Puberty has well and truly kicked in so I consider her a teenager. We are having serious problems with her behaviour which are adversely affecting family life (and I am worried about what the younger one sees and hears). We are on the waiting list for private counselling. We have called the police in the past. She is rude. She swears. She hits us. She damages property. She wishes us all dead. No one outside the house would have a clue. For the most part, she saves this behaviour for home.

How do we all cope whilst waiting for treatment? The behaviour is sporadic rather than constant but the triggers are not easy to foresee so we never know when an outburst might happen. Often I think that she just needs a huge hug but she pushes us away again and again.

Also, when the outburst is over, I am struggling to return to ‘normal’ with her and be loving/affectionate. If another adult treated me the way she does, I’d never have anything to do with them. Has anyone got any wise words for me? We are getting desperate. The latest outburst started at the weekend and we have barely seen her this week. She goes to her room and stays there. I have no idea how she is. We feel we are failing her but I genuinely don’t know what to do. That was longer than I expected.

Thanks for any advice or strategies.

In the absence of more serious issues which others have commented on I would simultaneously love bomb her by spending lots of time with her and taking an active interest, and enforcing firm boundaries and expectations over behaviour. So even when she is pushing you away persevere. Make her feel spoiled with attention rather than things. See if she responds to responsibility at home and more autonomy over her life (within reason)

you don’t have to remove phone - just limit the data. Works as effectively when at school and it can be removed at home.

it’s a delicate balance to get and the results don’t appear immediately. I’d also second checking what’s going on in friendship groups.
mine was shocking woth attitude . It was stress due to the drama with friendship group. There may well be stuff she isn’t trusting you with. Also she doesn’t need social media to be the victim of bullying with these apps which other kids then tell them about.

Adrenarche

Looking at her behaviour at school, it looks like she's performing at really excellent levels, but when she gets home, she turns into what you're battling, right?

SEN kids are sometimes like this at home, because they don't have to mask to be around kids and teachers. Masking all day when you're wound up inside = explosive upset when you're at home. Like being a human pressure cooker, if you see what I mean.

SEN + adrenarche = "interesting."

I say that as someone who's found out I'm a neuroweirdo later on in life. That's not an insult, it's just how I refer to my autism/adhd brainworms.

Journalise her behaviour and see if it matches up with her pre menstrual period. My PMDD started like this and ended up with me feeling suicidal premenstrually. Hope this helps. It will pass.

Pre menstrual Dysphoric Disorder.

What does her dad do when she hits him?

If definitely deteriorates in the 3 days before her period but also carries on after so not sure how much of a part the raging hormones are playing.

Usually winces. She is strong. Asks her not to do it. He has had several surgeries over the years and she tends to target weak spots.

From personal experience do NOT go down this route, it will only escalate things.

My dd was a bit older when she started but anxiety and low self esteem was the cause. It was awful. Got to the point where if she had of been my partner I would have left them and got them arrested. Told her that too.

She had counselling, twice, and it helped a bit but what really helped was when CAMHS stepped in and set up multi-agency package. This included Barnardos Talk to Teens course for me, can't recommend it enough. After the rage came 1-2 years of deep depression and weight loss. What got her through was love-bombing her, the whole way through and being with her horse (once she got well enough).

I remember the feeling of my world tilting and all I had that kept us and me grounded was smashed to pieces. She smashed through all our boundaries until we had three left;

You will come home at agreed time (called police if she didn't)

Swearing and violence was not acceptable (I did swear back once or twice, I am not a saint). There was no consequence but I would withdraw saying "I will not be treated this way".

And we will have meals as a family. Mad thing is she most often did. We didn't insist if she didn't, but the expectation was there.

Ten years on I seriously still have PTSD and remember so little of the detail, and I have a fantastic memory. But, we have a wonderful relationship and about 3 years after the eye of the storm she apologised for her behaviour and thanked me for not giving up on her. That I will never forget.

Oh, and I have found this behaviour to not be as uncommon as I thought. So, don't beat yourself up. Find an outlet to vent to, be kind to yourself and tell her you love her but hate the behaviour. Very important.

Good luck.

Oh hell. After a week without any of the behaviour referred to in the thread title, I broached with her tonight the idea of speaking to the counsellor on Wednesday. The appointment is booked. Well, she says she isn’t going and as soon as I raised it (gently), her behaviour deteriorated - swearing, kicking, she ‘hates us’ etc etc. I think she feels we have rejected her by arranging it. Oh God, I don’t know. Should we not have arranged it? When it’s all calm, you forget so easily how awful the not-calm times are.

I am an NVR practitioner and deal solely with this type of scenario.
Firstly pick your battles. Choose a couple of things you want to concentrate on and let the small things go.
Make a very clear statement of what you find unacceptable, write it down and give it to her when calm.
Definitely try to be the one to reconcile even thought it's really hard. This can be done via gestures such as making we a drink or offering her favourite chocolate bar. It's hard to do but be the bigger person.
Try to meet aggression with a firm but calm approach.
It's all about elevating your presence as a parent and not being drawn into meeting aggression with more aggression.
There's stuff online about it but I'm also happy to answer via a private message if you have any questions.

Thank you. That is kind. She took herself to bed after we spoke. To ruminate, I expect. I plan to see how things are tomorrow. It’s my non-working day so I have more time and energy to devote to the children. I feel bad that mentioning it has ruined our ‘good’ time but I also know the good time should be more than 20% of the time.

She's a teen and sometime when things are calm, I'd ask her why she thinks it's OK to hit others and wait for her answer.

Then I'd ask her, if she thinks it's OK for others to hit her for the same reasons she hits others.

You mentioned calling the police on her. What did they do when they came out?

Are there other children in the house?

@emptythelitterbox

Yes, a younger sibling.

The police chatted to her and explained why it’s no more acceptable to hit your family than it is to hit your friends etc. They were good and it helped for a while. When she’s in the immediate aftermath, she appears to be contrite and ready to change. Until the next cycle begins…

I had a counselling session arranged for tonight. Just an introduction, really, to see if she liked it or found it useful. She refused to go. £45 down the drain. The scene was set this morning when she lashed out again after a bad day at school yesterday. I was slapped in the face and spat at. Called names. Wished dead. Again. I am genuinely at a loss.

After a week or so of good behaviour and as part of a love bomb exercise, I’d arranged a treat for her for tomorrow but I just don’t want to go now. More money wasted but can’t bring myself to spend time tomorrow with someone who was so awful to me today. WWYD?

You're not going to like this, but I'd still do the treat. Say it is because you live her although her behaviour has not been acceptable. Keep repeating you love her. But X,Y or Z behaviour is unacceptable. Walk away if she is swearing / aggressive - say you love her but behaving this way is unacceptable. rinse and repeat. again and again ...

OK that explains things better.

The talk seems to be about her hitting other people, friends, family, etc.

Has she been asked if she thinks it's OK for friends, family, etc. to hit her.

Teens are naturally self absorbed anyway so she'd likely respond more if you put it like that because that is something that would directly affect her.
Hitting others is a non issue as for right now there's no consequences, she gets her way so she sees it as beneficial to her.
If you see what I mean.

If she comes up against another girl who punches her back, then she'll have the natural consequence and will think twice before hitting the girl again.

So let's talk consequences.
Does she have any consequences for hitting?
Does she hit her siblings?
Has the sibling witnessed her abuse towards you and her dad?

I wouldn't give her the treat. Save it for another time.

Think of radical solutions.

Film her when she's being unpleasant and show her later.

Done that. Multiple times. She cries and is contrite. Then it starts again.

My son can be similar. He has ADHD and we think there's more going on too. We eventually worked out that despite appearances he's actually a very anxious child, he struggles with damands as he feels this as lack of control and shows this as aggression/ anger.

So, we now pick our battles. Keep demands low. Let him keep some control where he can (eg if he wants to live in a messy room that's on him, I really hate that his room is a state but ultimately it's not worth the argument.) It's really helped- he still gets angry and shouts, but it's nearly always anxiety/ demand/ control related. There's a reason for it. He is aggressive far less often than he used to be.

It's difficult to change the way you think/ react- my instinct was to be strict, he may have ADHD but he has to learn etc. but it just doesn't work with him. It just causes stress and creates a horrible atmosphere for everyone. To begin with it felt like we were 'letting him get away with it' but it's not, really it's just a different way of parenting.

Yes, the feeling that she is getting away with it sits heavily. I’ve done probably the worst thing and I’m taking her sibling to the treat instead. I think she is surprised to have had consequences applied TBH. That said, she also told me she had never really wanted to go anyway. Especially with me. This is hard. I’m not good at being the bigger person. I wish she was 5 again.

Well done OP.
Even if it's not in her nature, even if she has to 'act', that's something that she'll need to do in life - moderate her unpleasant behavior, or else people will impose consequences.

Also, I know another poster said that this eventually didn't work, but I would try filming her and showing her later.
Even if she's never bothered by her behavior, it will be helpful showing say the GP, especially if her behavior is ok with other people.

(as you'd otherwise be disbelieved by the GP for example)

There's one piece of advice I read on here years ago that really helped me - don't internalise your DCs' behaviour; don't view them as an extension of or a reflection on you.

Her behaviour seems to be triggering for you. You need to remove yourself from the situation when she kicks off. Dial down the drama that she's trying to ramp up.

And I agree with a PP about reaffirming that you love her but x behaviour is unacceptable and the consequence is y. 'Get out of my Life but first take me and Alex into town' is helpful around teen behaviour.

@SeulementUneFois Thanks. We have plenty of footage now and some pretty unpleasant screenshots too.

@MelsMoneyTree Also thanks. I’ve read that book! I find it hard to walk away when she is hitting her sibling or swearing deliberately in front of her etc. She is taller than me so removing her from situations just isn’t an option unless she agrees. Otherwise, it looks like a fight to the younger one. I do find it hard to remove myself emotionally but that’s really from a ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ perspective rather than seeing her as an extension of me. This board has become a bit of a lifesaver so thanks again to anyone still reading!