I can’t cope anymore

[Peony26]

Ive given my 16 year old son until 2pm to get out, or I’m calling the police to remove him, we are cutting him off, his behaviour has been challenging mainly at school since he was about 7, and when we discipline him at home for his behaviour it spirals into his horrible behaviour at home too. So he’s left school and gone to college and been kicked out, we’ve been supporting him by taking him to appointments etc but he just won’t do anything for himself! He’s bone idle and he needs to grow up! Hes supposed to be at an appointment at 1.30pm about a traineeship but he’s been kicking off since about 9am, won’t get showered or dressed, is sitting on the Xbox, screaming at us, calling us every name under the sun. He's never sworn at me until today he gets grabby, he’s really nasty, screaming and shouting but never beaten or swore at us before. He’s basically screaming at us that we are stupid because we won’t give him his phone that we pay for, so he can’t go anywhere.

My heads up my arse! It’s like a vicious circle he’s so entitled and disrespectful, he’s stood there and called his dad a fat retard, and so we’ve told him we aren’t paying for his phone after being treated that way, so then he’s literally screaming in my face that I’m a fucking idiot and where is he going to go if I won’t give him his phone. I’ve calmly explained that he’s not entitled to it, we pay for it and he’s abusive to us on a daily basis so he needs to leave and make his way himself. But he’s just screaming at me that I am an idiot because I’m not giving him everything, for him to go. We’re just going round in a circle, will the police help me remove him? What do I do, I can’t put up with his abuse every single day anymore, you can’t even wake him in a morning without him screaming at you

Thank you. I really am, I have just sat here sobbing for hours. I really hope that it’s a wake up call because we can’t go on like this. My husband is here and is very supportive but my son has no respect for him at all, I don’t know why, because he’s very present, doesn’t everything for us, is the bread winner, and I know my son admires him, brags about his job etc but if he tries to deal with him it escalates big time, as soon as my husband tries to talk to him our son squares up to him, my husband has never retaliated, he has held him down once about a year ago because he had no choice, so it always falls on my shoulders and I just can’t anymore

Hugs from me OP. (Some) teenagers are fucking hard work, mine was for a bit, in different ways.

I would love to be able to step back, it’s what I’ve tried to do today but it’s impossible because he can’t even get up to an alarm, brush his teeth, get showered and dressed, everything is a constant battle with him! What am I supposed to do leave him to literally do as he pleases and pray that he realises it’s not much of a life. Or leave him to become and 20/30/40/50 year old bum 🤷‍♀️

He said he wanted to do an apprenticeship, when they told him he still had to do maths and english he refused, it’s like he thinks it will all just pan out the way he wants with no effort on his part

Haha, clearly not or I wouldn’t have added a caveat.

What am I supposed to do leave him to literally do as he pleases and pray that he realises it’s not much of a life.

If it is any consolation, this is essentially how it went with my daughter. She decided education was optional during/after lockdown, fucked her GCSEs up, dropped out of college. I was stressed as hell. She did eventually decide she was bored shitless and now works full time, which she's really enjoying. She was rarely unpleasant to me but I found it so difficult to focus on the present when I was panicking about the future.

A child like the OPs, three who aren’t, a first class degree in a relevant area and 15 years of education background

Same here, except I’ve got 26 years experience. It’s like Covid deniers

Where will he go? Where would you go if you were 16 and kicked out?

I hear you, enough is enough. Can any friends or family take him in for a while? Really hope you will all heal and brighter days are coming

I actually kicked my 16 year old out. It's not easy and it was under very different circumstances.
Briefly - he had severe addiction issues was involved in county lines, was extremely violent at home - not just smashing the house but attacking people with crow bars etc, he lied, stole and smashed stuff up, people came to the house with baseball bats, threatened his siblings with rape and beatings. Months of begging SS for help, getting every agency possible involved and he attacked again - the police were involved. The police and SS tried everything to get his parents to take him back - if he was my partner and not son, they would have pressed charges.

what you are describing sounds frustrating, even infuriating but I personally don't think its grounds for kicking him out.

OP, sounds like he is reacting badly to pressure.

You say at other times he is cooperative and pleasant. He is proud of his father and affectionate.

Some useful tactics in dealing with oppositional behaviour involve not giving the child anything to mentally 'brace' themselves against in the moment. It's not the same as letting them do their own thing completely, but more about sidestepping conflict and both of you being successful. Explain the situation to him, ie 'you need to have a shower this morning, so I've put a fresh towel here on your bed', then walk away. Try not to give instructions or to catastrophise the consequences of poor decisions.

This all seems counterintuitive, but I've seen great results in attitude and behaviour by using low confrontation techniques.

He needs boundaries, regardless of whether he has ADHD or ASD. If he's able to sit on his arse all day playing the Xbox and being fed, what motivation is there for him to get a job or an education?

So I think you are right to enforce some boundaries and make clear that certain things are privileges to be earned. BUT - right now you are in crisis and emotions are high so it isn't the best time.

Let everyone calm down then tomorrow or the day after try and come to an agreement about the way forward which involves what he needs to do if he wants phone, WiFi, Xbox, lifts etc.

You can't kick him out though, he can't get a job at 16, 16 year olds have to be in education or an apprenticeship. Is an apprenticeship realistic - does he have any work experience? Might he change his mind about English/maths once he has time to consider? Is there anyone who could act as a mentor to talk through his options?

You sound like me. End of tether.
My DS is now 17 and we are still going through it however it's improved since last year. GCSE was awful. Covid broke him and me tbh trying to cope and understand him.
Happy to chat over pm

My son of the same age just got home from school and went to the shop for me as I have chronic illness and needed some things.

He asked how I was doing and gave me a hug. They aren't all like this thankfully.

I think he needs some boundaries and to think of others more.

Brilliant post👆

You poor thing. I really get where you are coming from and so sorry you have to go through this. I hope he gets the shock he clearly needs

Feel for you OP, you can read the stress in your posts.

As a couple of other people have said, go back to basics. He’ll get a roof over his head, three meals a day and not much else. Get the Xbox out of his room, keep a hold of his phone. Any other privileges he has such as pocket money, remove them.

While he’s away, if it were me, I’d go through his room now and disconnect all of the electronics or whatever else you’d plan to remove. I’d get them in the boot of my car or something. If he doesn’t like you doing that, tough shit. It’s your house, you’re (presumably) paying for the broadband, electricity, phone, Xbox subscriptions.

Then, when he returned, I’d explain that until he can treat other people with some decency and respect, he’ll get no luxuries. He’ll go off his head, let him. Stay calm and stick to your guns.

If he lifts his hands or damages your property, phone the police. It does sound like your boy needs a shock to his system.

Hi OP my son 18 was exactly the same. He didn’t respond to any kind of disciplinary measures. He didn’t care if we took his phone off him, stopped his money, stopped him from going out, he always found a way. Trying to discipline him made him worse and he didn’t care about consequences.

He was exceptionally abusive, mainly verbal but also physical at times, often trashing his room, breaking things in the house. Once in the car he punched the roof of the car so hard he smashed the mirror in the visor. He would push and shove me and generally make everyone’s lives a misery.

He refused all interventions, we tried doctors, therapists, he refused to engage, we went on parenting courses the lot. He had been suspended from school several times by the age of 14.

Im afraid there’s no magic wand and he’s not going to wake up tomorrow a different person, BUT what I can tell you is no matter how upset and angry you feel right now, he doesn’t mean any of the things he’s said to you. He’s angry, frustrated and unable to articulate his feelings. He needs you. You are the constant, the stability in his life. Kicking him out now will only lead to bigger problems down the line.

You need to put in a couple of boundaries (don’t use the word rules) and ask him to participate in the conversation as to what he thinks is fair. Choose your timing wisely. One of the most valuable lessons I have learned having an impossible, entitled teen is you cannot control what other people say or do, but you can totally control how you respond or react. Rude, abusive behaviour requires no response. Calmly leave the situation and ignore. You know he’s only doing it to get a reaction.

I now know that from my experience, my son just couldn’t cope with having to conform and follow instructions. He couldn’t understand why he needed to fit in and do stuff other people wanted him to do, he felt controlled (I’m not saying anyone was controlling but that’s how he perceived it) and therefore completely overwhelmed and it induced massive anxiety for him which came out in screaming rage and tantrums.

Things massively improved when he left school. He now works, hardly ever has a bad word to say to us. He’s funny and compassionate, he has a girlfriend who really ‘gets him’, they adore each other.

hang in there, it’s horrendous but it won’t last forever, it takes time 🤞

We are having difficult times like the Op, so thank you for this advice it gives me hope

It's not like that for everyone. Even with a sibling with asd and multiple family members my youngest didn't get assessed and diagnosed until 17.

Thank you for all the supportive messages. I am so stressed out with it all. Me and my husband have been talking it through all afternoon. I don’t know how we are going to move forward tbh, because it doesn’t matter what you do he doesn’t care, and he always manages to side step it and it comes back on us! My husband is very tech minded so he blocks everything remotely, he always get a warning and then we will cut it off, and we cut it off this morning when he first started, but then he was trying to make us unlock it and then he would do as we asked so we obviously said no! I have tried so hard to change the narrative, for example he wouldn’t clean his room, so I did it. He felt really guilty for about 2 minutes, and all I asked was that he didn’t leave any cups in there again, but yesterday 5 cups in there! I didn’t even comment on anything else, I’m not being unreasonable, but when I said to him that I had worked hard in there, and that he had promised me that he wouldn’t have mugs in there because it had stained his window sill, and I had to touch it up, he was just absolutely vile. He’s worked since he was 13, paper rounds, then a shop, and we’ve supported him with extras when he’s working hard, like he was saving for a game, once he showed he was working hard and saving hard, we helped with other things so he could still get his game, but he’s even had a wobble there recently and kept calling in sick. We went to a careers advisor at the council and said maybe an apprenticeship was better than college, as he has good work ethic usually, and likes the instant reward with the money, but he isn’t willing to work on his Maths and English so they said he could do a traineeship which he bailed on the appointment today, or go to work, but obviously it will be a rubbish job and he doesn’t want to do it and until he’s got to do something, and he just doesn’t care atm! We aren’t sure how to move forward because we are a hard working family we have built our lives up that our children are far more comfortable than we ever were, but not spoilt they really aren’t spoilt. And we just can’t comprehend him sitting around being bone idle!

In the end he went to my moms tonight, we definitely needed a break from the situation. I am fetching her tomorrow to drop her off at a meal, so I’m assuming I’ll be picking him up at the same time

I have, on occasion, taken the router to work with me!

My sympathies, OP. I have a teenage dd who has always required high intensity parenting and I can see her problems escalating. She hasn't been to school since covid and I am almost certain she has ADHD but CAMHS refuse to assess her because she is not going to school. I have fought for years to get appropriate help for her but largely failed. I am a single mum and absolutely knackered.

I'm not really in a position to offer advice to anyone, but two things jumped out at me from your post. The first is that you are absolutely strung out (understandably) and this is not a good time to be making major decisions. Don't throw him out (yet) but do find someone who can take him in for a few days while you rest, collect your thoughts, and plan a strategy with your dp.

The second thing is maybe to scale down the number of beaches you are fighting on. If he doesn't shower, get out of bed or attend appointments then maybe so be it (at least for now). Stop fighting over his phone. What are the real priorities here? I would identify two or three things that he absolutely must do (or not do) to stay under your roof, and they should be complete bottom lines. For my dd, I have accepted that she will not be getting 8 GCSEs and going to uni like her sister - she'll do well to scrape 2 or 3 at this stage. But if she acts respectfully in my home and out of it, doesn't trash my property, and keeps communicating with me as openly as she doesn't now, then I'm winning.

Good luck.

Have you thought about saying here is your phone your xbias or whatever but you have to pay for subscriptions or phone costs. You said he has his own money. Might not be how you saw it all panning out but it basically leaves him with the responsibility in the end. If it gets broken, stolen he has to buy his own. If he runs out of credit he has to buy more. When he runs out of money get a job 🤷‍♀️

In a way you might have to leave him to it, but in this way he might come round to sorting himself out if he has to pay for the things he enjoys

I hear what you are saying op; but parenting doesn't take place in a vacuum.
Our parents wouldn't put up with it but we all parent in a different way now and that has good and bad consequences.

Your son is very clever! In order to individuate and become an independent adult, he has to cut himself off from you and he does that by going against your wishes and rejecting your values.
And what important value do you state in your op that you hold dear: you are a
hard-working family! There is your answer for why he is behaving as he is!
He may not be totally aware why he is doing it either!

What would happen if you backed off a lot?
Imho, you should not be getting involved in whether or not a sixteen year old wakes up or not or whether he has a shower or not. Or whether he brushes his teeth.
If he wanted to smell horrible at his appointment that is his business.
If he chooses to get toothache then so be it. For that matter, if he doesn't make it to his appointment himself that is his choice and he gets to suffer the natural consequences eg very little money.

By facilitating all of this stuff for him he is able to shift blame on to you and shirk responsibility. Why not completely reverse tactics and back off completely?

Try not to give him so much power over your emotions. This is an awful utterly hideous phase but it will stop when this period of brain plasticity ends at around 25 years old.

At the moment he isn't capable of perceiving what a complete shit he is being, or the devastating effect it is having on you. So don't take it personally.

You and your husband go out for your birthday. And keep going out with your other dc and leave him alone in his room if that’s what he wants. Do not always tell him where or when you are going. Be a bit selfish and focus on your own life and stop the negative cycle. Let him see you and your DH enjoy yourselves. You are giving your ds too much power otherwise.

Disengage. Don't do his washing.
Tell him meal times but he can join you or not. Leave bowls of food for him in the fridge that he can heat up in the microwave. Leave out a bowl of fruit and a tin of biscuits. Bread and cheese. He won't starve. Don't clean his room. Go a bit 'cold' on him. Don't be as available. Communicate in a calm factual brief manner.

If he starts playing up then you and your DH walk out immediately. Walk out of the house if necessary and go to the pub.
Don't get drawn in to arguments ever.
Ignore, ignore, ignore.

The only time you intervene is if he engaged in risky behaviour such as drug taking then you swoop in fast and furious and the phone goes. And obviously any
physical child to parent abuse is unacceptable.

Seek advice from : www.pegsupport.co.uk/

Personally though, in general, I would give him his phone as that is his contact to friends, the outside world, his music, his alarm clock, his everything.
But other than that he is on his own.

And give him as little money as possible for him to survive without resorting to criminality. And cut the wi-fi from time to time.

Tell him you expect him to get a job or study. Give him a deadline of a few months and tell him if he needs support with it then you are happy to help.

Choose a calm moment and tell him loud and clear that you love him and want him to have a great future but you realise that his recent behaviour of being vile pushing you and your DH away has demonstrated that he no longer wants as much direction from you so you are going to let him get on with it. Then back off!
Tell him you will be interested to see what he does with his life.

You are no longer parenting from the top down but as an interested spectator walking alongside him curious to see what he will do next.

Obviously engage positively if you see him doing anything good, otherwise leave him to it. Let him know that he will not be welcome to stay at home indefinitely if he is not studying or earning.

You can't chuck him out ATM though
op. He's your child. Being there alongside them and seeing them struggle and protest and fuck up is literally what parents are there for.
Words cannot fully describe how soul-destroying and mentally draining this phase is but stick with it, albeit
at a much less engaged level.
And not at the expense of your own mental health.

He needs to see you model strength and a degree of positivity atm, the last thing he needs is for you and your dh to crumble. He is testing you in a way and you need to demonstrate tenacity.

(Obviously you don't have to put up with physical abuse though, see link to PEGS above.)

As for the autism/ADHD question, I would definitely try and get him to see a licensed psychologist specialising in this area.
And get him assessed if he will cooperate.
Of course it's a possibility.
I am surprised that so many parents of autistic children, of all people, on this thread, do not know that the effects
of autism are manifested in many different and various ways according to each individual child.

Oh, teen girls with ADHD and ASD can be abusive and hellish too, trust me.

On balance I trust the professionals and the studies. Oppositional defiant disorder is extremely comorbid with ADHD. Not sure about ASD but could be too – easily looked up if you're curious.

Also, your son is lucky to have been diagnosed. As I'm sure many can testify, undiagnosed (for years and years) ASD and ADHD can be a unique hell in itself. That's why diagnosis often provides hope of the situation changing.