Horrible argument over school work. Would you back right off now?

[LemonDropss]

My DS is in year 11, he's 16 in December.

Our relationship is good and we are close. He's generally speaking a good lad

But the flashpoint is homework. He won't do it. Just won't. And when he does, it's slapdash and rubbish but I'd say, 70% of the time, he doesn't turn it in so his mocks saw a clutch of 2s and 3s.

He says all the right things, and he's had all the tools to do homework. He's very lucky, has his own study, I've offered to pay for a maths tutor, I've spoken with his teachers, we've put plans together etc etc

Anyway, today he has maths. Was set 6 days ago and due in tomorrow . I told him to do it before any gaming and well... this is where it went wrong. He point blank refused, said he'd do it at 8pm, I said 'no, you need to do it before any gaming and before 8pm or it won't get done'

He then called me 'a bit thick,' 'not listening to a word he says' 'a useless mum'

Yes I know not beyond the realms of normality for a teenager but it was really horrible tbh. I shouted back at him to just stop now, he told me to grow up and ugh ..

I have tried everything I can to help with his schoolwork. He is just .. lazy. The mocks were not the wake up call I expected them to be.

This is our only flashpoint and yes, I should have taken this back a few steps and just let him get on with it. Or not, as the case would be

So.. onto my question. Would you just stop now? Not say another word about doing homework? Let him fail? Let him now fully grasp that his (non) actions have consequences?

It's upset me tonight because we don't have this usually - it's happened because I put my foot down and insisted and he was really rude and well.. still hasn't done it

Dragondan if you wouldn't mind, could you please explain how the assessment helped? Did your DS go on to medication, or get any other help for the condition? Or was just the diagnosis helpful in that it helped him to understand what was going on?

OP I could have written your post - hence my questions above. Best of luck to you !

I agree with trying to back off, but I know how hard it is, watching them fail. I've never managed it.
I would also make it clear to him that as long as he's in some sort of education then you will support him, but if he opts out then he has to pay his way. That means paying for WiFi etc. Maybe suggest he gets a job, so he can find out what it's like to do a job that requires zero qualifications, and get an idea of how he'll be spending then next 50+ years

Thank you @Y7drama

I'm pretty straight with my students. This is what I expect. This is how I will work. This is how you will work.

There is flex in my system but not too much.

I don't pander to nonsense and I don't care for excuses. But if you want it, even a little bit, I'll give it.

I bloody love my job.

@FruitPastilleNut what does getting tough look like though? Removing his possessions? He's nearly 16, we have moved past that really.

It's not about him being hellbent on gaming or anything. He is just exactly as you describe your son.

I'm also a believer in when you start removing possessions and privileges , you give them - quite literally - nothing to lose. So behaviour worsens

No one wins

He would look at an apple core turning brown rather than do homework.
This made me laugh out loud. I feel like that about data sheets.

My friends son was like this. She forced it and forced it. So he started to lie. Sat in his room pretending, turned in min effort shit. Yup he failed them all. If he’s not going to do it. He’s not going to do it.

I think your ds calling himself lazy is a self-fulfilling prophecy. What I mean by this is as your ds defines himself as lazy, his brain is striving to keep himself there. He’s therefore using all kinds of avoidance tactics to not do the work. Probably all this stems from being afraid of failure.

All of this is very demotivating for him. You then coming along and beating him with a stick is going to be really painful because it’s a lashing on top of the constant bashing he’s doing to himself. So he’s lashed out back, understandably.

School are giving him lots of goals, which right now seem unachievable. The closer your ds gets to GCSEs, potentially the more scary they may become. He may turn it around, he may not. But right now, what you’re both doing isn’t working so dropping the rope for a rethink is definitely needed. My friend did this with her ds when in the same situation and he worked and scrapped passes. But it was enough to get to college. My thoughts, which perhaps are yours too, is to what happens if your backing off doesn’t work and this leads to failure.

Idk quite how I’d approach this. But it sounds as if you both need to be more collaborative and try to avoid arguments. It is a bit like dog training, maybe. If you could only give your ds rewards and praise for what he gets right, how would that look?

I don’t think on our deathbeds we will look back and regret not having a go at our children more. I think the opposite is true and as the adult, when I go ott and however my dd reacts, I apologise. I do tend to be a shouty mum when things aren’t going well so I’m definitely trying to learn this too. My dd is yr10 so similar age.

Writing this has been very cathartic for me actually. I think I may need to get better at this myself.

I think you need to be very clear, both to yourself and him, about life is going to look like post gcses.

Talk about a levels is just pure in the sky so what's he actually going to do with his clutch of grade 2s and 3s. Are you OK with supporting him through college, maybe a BTEC ? What happens if he doesn't work at that either? Are you OK to keep supplying room/board/phone contract/pocket money and if so for how long and under what conditions?

I'm not suggesting you threaten him, just be clear what the deal is. My kids were aware from an early age that school was only an option if they took it seriously, otherwise it was paid employment of whatever type they could find.

I would just let him fail, although I’d be plain and honest about it first - honest as in ‘I just want to check what your plans are after school. You’re likely to fail your exams since you’re not doing any work, and you won’t get into uni after you’ve failed them. I’ll expect you to get a job ASAP and pay x in keep.’ That would be the end of it, and I’d stick to it but would stop bothering about homework. It’s time for him to take responsibility for himself.

However, I would be applying some sort of consequence for his disgusting attitude. If my son called me ‘a bit thick’ and ‘useless’ I’d be too thick to remember his pocket money for quite a while, definitely too thick to give lifts anywhere, and I’d be useless at washings and cooking. He’s too old to play the ‘oh he’s just a kid’ line. That’s really nasty talk. Imagine a boyfriend talking to a girlfriend like that. ‘You’re just a bit thick.’

@Mummyoflittledragon thanks for that

I will say though - I have tried everything. There really isn't anything left to try.

I never ever down talk anything to him. I highlight the smallest things to praise and I ignore the not so good stuff. I have been in reverse psychology overload for years.

This is a boy who is supported every which way - not in an 'in your face' way but in a way that gives him every chance of success

And he genuinely can't really be arsed to draw a picture in his art book

Do they have a homework club at school? If he associates school with work and refuses to see home as a 'workspace', can he do all his homework in afterschool club/lunch club or whatever?

And after all - to put this in perspective - this is very very normal for a lot of teens. Just a shame it's so frustrating

Very true. I think they get locked into this cycle of them vs you and their teachers, like they're sticking it to the man by not trying. They need a bit of help to understand that they are actually sticking it to themselves, because ultimately, it makes no difference either way to anybody else, whether they do well or not.

I think for those with younger ones, it's easy to think that you can make them want to do well by punishing them, but you really can't. They will just do whatever the new minimum is. So if they have to do their homework before they can game, the homework will be done in a rush and crap, and it won't actually do its job. And they will resent you and you will be at loggerheads exactly at the age when they really need someone in their corner and a lot of support. At some point they have to decide what they want in life, and do what it takes to get it. Helping them to grasp this is the key imo.

I'd say you need to start planning his future based on the lack of academic achievement.

Focus on what he needs to get into college;usually 5 passes at GCSE to include maths and English.

He can't do A-levels:he needs a vocational course or an apprenticeship or one of these T-level things.

School and academia doesn't agree with some kids especially boys;there's light at the end of the tunnel;my son performed badly in school;he got detentions every single day for not doing homework,he also got into fights and got into trouble in the classroom;we absolutely despaired.

He did okay in his GCSEs to our relief;he did a vocational course at college and dropped out 75% of the way through.

He's now a shift manager at McDonald's and he's still a teenager;it's decent pay with good benefits and he doesn't work more than 45 hours a week.He's started saving money for a deposit for a mortgage.

@lemonyelderflower yes, there is a homework club. Naturally, I've done all I can to get him to go

'No thanks!' is the response and I can't manhandle a 6 footer on the door to it

@ButStillSomehow

He hasn't started medication yet. He probably will in the next few days. It's a fairly recent diagnosis. I think it just helped for him to know that he wasn't lazy and he couldn't help not being able to focus and concentrate.
He has just started a fairly prestigious degree apprenticeship and he said he was worried he was going to "fuck that up too".
He just seems so much more relaxed and his old self since diagnosis.
Psychiatrist said he had slight depression too as he had spent years of people telling him he's lazy and disorganised and told off for losing things. His self esteem was very low but fingers crossed he seems to be happier

@thenewduchessoflapland you're right. I need to think about options for the potential failing of GCSEs so I'm prepared for what those options look like

Thanks for sharing your story

The teacher should be bouncing shoddy work right back at him. Leave it to the teacher if dealing with him is going to upset you so much.

I'd say back off and let him fail his mocks. Some boys are just lazy (mine is as well) but he pulled his finger out when he didn't do as well as he should have in the mocks.

I sat him down and said he wash almost an adult and that I couldn't sit the exams for him so it was his responsibility. He did finally get the message and put in the work from January to June and ended up with really good results - including 2 9s!

I'd ask the school to make sure they sanction him for not doing the homework and back them up - don't bail him out.

Can you take him to some college open days and look at what courses he can do with G2 and G3’s … so he knows what his, more limited, options are for at the end of yr 11? As he is unlikely to be keen to apply for an apprenticeship without support - which he seems to be refusing.

perhaps having a more realistic goal for next September may help,

IME boys don't really have the capacity to grasp the seriousness of the GCSE year, they develop later than girls, and this is why the highest grades always favour girls too. They are also a bit terrified of being tested, as the testosterone is kicking up a gear, but they have little control over it. So they become demand avoidant.

I spent twelve years dragging year 11 boys into my class after school to complete their coursework, so I do know a little of what I'm talking about. Most boys of 15/16 still think they are going to be famous footballers or martial arts champions. Girls are a bit more realistic at this age.

I agree with MrsHamlet. I set the students homework and I am ultimately responsible for making sure it gets done. I only ask that parents make sure their children have the time, space and equipment (eg pen, pencil, ruler, calculator) to get it done. Perhaps a reminder if a child struggles with deadlines, or help when a child asks for it. As a tutor I decline to work with students who are only begrudgingly engaging with me at their parents behest. It doesn’t work and I can’t take their money knowing that it won’t work.

If homework isn’t handed in on time or to a good standard I let parents know so they understand what is going on. But, ultimately, I make sure it is done. Some have to sit in detention until it is complete to a decent standard and then realise it is better to do it on time so they can chill with friends at lunch. Others need hours and hours of detentions (aka homework lunchtimes) before they realise I’m tenacious and determined to see them do their best. The worst was a girl in year 10 who hated me with a passion when I insisted on good homework and concentration in lessons. It got better after her first assessment and she got her highest ever score in the subject.

Importantly, homework and effort in class are my problem and as long as parents support my sanctions, I don’t expect them to take the bullet for me. Rows at home just add to everyone’s stress and it’s unnecessary. If it escalates to him literally screaming / swearing at teachers you make have to get involved again, but otherwise I’d back off.

If I were you I’d tell him straight. You’ll back the school on whatever sanctions they see fit, but it is up to him to decide what he wants to achieve. No emotional blackmail, no “I’m only insisting on this because I love you”, no “but I just know you’re better than this”. Just calmly stop taking responsibility for his choices. Treat him like a grown up regarding his school work - the vast majority of year 11 rise to meet that expectation.

Hmmm.
Well, I feel for you.
But I'm afraid you'll have to let him fail.
Sorry.
A final sit down (you don't mention a dh/dad?) and spell out, as you have here, what the future will look like with no gcses or qualifications.
Perhaps he thinks you will just continue to finance him no matter what?
Nip THAT in the bud!
You don't mention any pt jobs/hobbies?
I'll also just add - are you sure there is no underlying sen? Things like dyslexia/adhd are often not dx until secondary and mocks/exams can trigger all sorts of avoidant behaviour.
Good luck.

@unicormb yes, he's a very very typical 15 year old! Talks absolute nonsense a lot of the time, obsessed with watching and chatting football, likes being with mates and chatting to girls

It's all very very normal. He's a loving boy and his behaviour is generally fine.

I just wish he'd grasp that this is the time to also fit in a spot of physics now and again

He will, probably when he's about 17/18. Which is why I wish schools had the American system because it allows boys to catch the girls up.

I think you are doing the right thing OP (I'm a secondary teacher too).