dd has just told me she is non-binary

[steppemum]

So, dd is nearly 15.
a couple of years ago she went through a time of questioning, during which she wouldn't talk to us. Finally she told us she was gay. Fine, of course we supported her, and had lots of chats about it, suported her in coming out to the rest of the family etc. No big deal. Relieved that she was chatting about it again, and there were many conversations about stereotypes etc.
She goes to a youth club for LGBT kids and we have fully supported that.

Now she has decided she is non- binary and wants to change her name and pronouns.
Now I don't believe you can change biological sex, and feel that in supporting her to say she is neither, we are saying that a woman cannot be anything she wants to be. She is a women who rejects stereotypes, fine, reject away! But she cannot be neither female nor male, she is female, whether she likes it or not.

I need to support her, and will use her new name but I cannot work out how to go forward with this.

Bloody mermaids and all they teach, until 10 years ago, she would have just been a 'tomboy' and she could have been who she liked, now we need a label and pronouns and name change etc

Just not sure how to move forward.
Need support not slagging off

I think have a conversation with them, talk about what it means to them and try and understand it. They obviously trust you enough to talk about it which is really good. Try and understand it and make sure they know that whatever they do, however they look, you will always love them and that won't change.
I'm non binary and still not out to my parents so it's really positive they feel comfortable talking with you. Talking about it with them is the most important thing

It's fine for her to identify as non-binary but she will have to acknowledge much of the world will not. In some places it could have serious negative consequences.

Whatever happened to androgynous? Fine - she isn’t a girly girl - that’s her and millions of other girls and women!

She is 14 - still a child. She can be a girl who chooses to dress and ‘act’ male and/or female. She can dancer males and/or females but is too young for sexual relationships anyway.

She does know is all stereotypical bull anyway doesn’t she?

Non-binary is a load of fashionable twaddle, but at least it does not portend major bodily modification. Hopefully, she will grow out of it. I’d be watching what influences her though and making sure she has a wide variety of friends and influences.

I'm so sorry for you OP. If this sort of shit had been around when I was a young tomboy, I'd have gone down that road too. As it is, it turns out I'm a straight woman who was a bit of a tomboy when she was young.

Poor young people today being brainwashed, and poor you.

My sister too - and god knows maybe even me as I copied what my big sister did.

My sister was a good old fashioned tomboy. Short hair, ‘boys clothes’ and ‘boys toys’, always red and blue, spaceships and action man. Jesus - this generation thinks they invented this.

Honestly, I'd probably just tell her "that's nice dear, I'll do my best but you'll have to forgive any slip ups as you've been 'Jessica' and 'her' and 'she' to me for 14 years... it'll take some getting used to for lots of your family and friends so you'll have to be patient with everyone".

And then I'd try and find some non-Mermaids non-brainwashing non-trans organisations for her to get in touch with.

Ah

I was going to say well most people are non binary aren't they

Is it a gender neutral name? They/them?

When DD went a bit hunting over gender a couple years back she didn't ask but I call called her by a nickname that is not gendered, and tried to avoid saying you're my lovely girl, said you're my lovely baby etc. She was much younger though. Anyway I watched plenty of David Bowie, Adam ant, toyah, Annie Lennox, selecter etc videos with her and she seems to have settled. Also talked about gender v sex and women's history etc.

It's really hard now for girls with such sexualised high maintenance role models of girl/ woman wherever you look. (That the children are exposed to). Club Tropicana came on the other day and while it's all beautiful aspirational etc, there was such a sense of fun. I don't know. I'm not actually that aware of all the current people they are into etc but it all seems more serious.

Anyway I'd go with it.

OTOH parents have always said youth culture is ridiculous so, while obv some people are dysphoric, for many it's the current teen tribal thing I think.

Introduce her to feminism. Let her understand the world and how it actually is - and that she can’t hide from it or pretend it all away. When push comes to shove - do the perpetrators of violence/attacks against women stop to ask pronouns?

Honestly, I'd probably just tell her "that's nice dear,

How patronising

Transgender trends is a charity supporting parents and educators with this in a non judgmental, watchful waiting Way. They do an excellent toolkit as an antidote to mermaid poison. Watch out for their supporters at school.
Fwiw, my 30 year old AS son has just come out with this. Firstly I had to explain to his dad who sees it much like when overnight at 15 he became a goth.

Watch out for her social media activity.

I am sorry you are facing this with your daughter.

I would really want to have discussions about this with her about what that term means to her and why she feels the desire to label herself. I wonder if she would be open to seeing a therapist to get a grasp on the turmoil she is facing. A therapist might provide a personalised balance/counterbalance to the ideology she is being brainwashed by or exposed to in school and the club.

I also agree with PPs about introducing her to feminism.

Look at the Transgender Trend guidance and encourage her to read it too
Check her social media activity, phones
Consider if there is any bullying (in any form)
Monitor all ongoing internet access

i went through this with my DD when she was 14. we agreed on a neutral ‘nickname’ and i respected her pronouns. she chose to go by the name she would have been given had she been born a boy, but i will admit i struggled with that, hence the agreed nickname.

and that was all i did. there was talk of breast binders for a while, but that quietly went away. i neither encouraged not discouraged her, i just listened and respected her. she went to a youth group for a while, and i and her father (divorced) agreed a watch-and-wait policy.

now at almost 20 she is a proud bisexual feminist, back to female pronouns (i am weirdly finding that more difficult than adjusting to they/them!) and so the world continues to turn.

just my experience. this doesn’t have to be a big deal, as things stand. i wish you and your family well.

nor discouraged her

I’d start with the artifice that is gender-it’s a social construction.
As has been mentioned, we are all non binary as ‘sexed bodies’ mingle femininities and masculinities-we cannot speak of a singular femininity nor masculinity,
IMO the current use of non binary - in terms of they/them- only serves to purport the myth that there is a ‘truth’ behind ‘him’ or ‘her’,

Get her to watch this...

So glad someone finally called out what rubbish it is

IMO the current use of non binary - in terms of they/them- only serves to purport the myth that there is a ‘truth’ behind ‘him’ or ‘her’,

I could not agree more. We are having nonsense conversations because 'binary' means nothing and does not define what we are discussing. I know no-one who is NOT binary. And behind all this we have young, vulnerable, sometimes very rigid thinking, people who are distressed to a greater or lesser degree. We are not helping them. I always wonder whose agenda this is really serving. I don't think it's the people who are unhappy with their bodies or what they perceive as societies expectations on them.

Thank you for all your comments.

We have been having conversations about gender stereotypes and feminism for 2+ years (and we have always had those sort of conversatins round our dinner table anyway - if it is in the news we talk about it)
None of this is new. 2 year ago I thought she was going to come out as trans and was really relieved when she came out as gay. (because then we weren't faced with the question of hormones etc_

She knows that we will suport her in anything, we have had that conversation many times, including again this weekend. But she also knows my opinion on the pushing of hormones onto kids etc, and that someone with gender dysphoria needs help, just as someone with any dysphoria does.
She also knows (because I overheard a conversation with her sister) that we are not in any way anti-trans, just anti some of the current political implications. She has several friends who are gender questioning and trans and one of her close friends has an aunt/uncle who is non binary.

None of this is a new discussion. She has been in trousers and boys haircuts for years.

What is new is the name change and the request for they/them pronouns.
To be blunt and honest, (on here, not with her) I find they/them pronouns ridiculous, they is plural and it sounds silly. We don't have words for so much if it (hence my use of aunt/uncle)

I think I am also really angry (not with her). Why can't she just her herself? being who she wants, wearing what she wants, behaving how she wants. Why does that necessitate a change of gender? Are we so polorised as a society that we have no space for androgynous girls or boys?

What exactly about being a woman is not available to her that she needs to also somehow inlcude men in that definition? I feel as if she has been pushed into a box that doesn't exist really.

I actually think it was better in the 80s with Bowie etc around.

She is part of an LGBT+ youth club. I really struggled at first if it was the right thing to let her go there, but it is one of the places where she is really happy and has good friends.

I am hurt, and I know that. Hurt that she told the youth club before us, hurt that she has rejected her name. Hurt that she calls her name her 'dead' name (I actually asked her not to do that, I said that person is not dead, they have evolved, and she had a happy childhood under that name, it isn't dead, just not needed any more)

sorry, just ranting.

She needs to also understand that she hurts you and it's not all about her (but good luck explaining that to a teen). Explain that this is actually a pretty sexist thing.

And I wouldn't call her by a plural noun - it's a nonsense mangling of the English language.

Non-binary isn't trans though is it - it's somewhere under the ever-growing umbrella though. It's just not believing in the stereotypes - but who can actually put their hand on their heart and say 'I feel 100 woman/man?'. Noone - and it doesn't make them unique or special.

I wouldn't be overly happy about the group either - the emphasis is most likely to the T these days, and the reinforcement of nonsense stereotypes and queer theory sexism. I have heard some absolute nonsense by some of these groups interviewed. Very stereotyped and obsessed with their own being/sexuality. Ask her if the school also has a feminist club (which I doubt).

I should say, she is a veyr gentle and loving girl, and quite private, quite introvert.
I on the other hand am loud and opinionated and extrovert.

So, in handling this, I have had to be very gentle and not bulldoze, and not push my opinion, because she needs space too.

I was so pleased when she came out as gay, because for the next 12 months she seemed so happy in her skin. That is why I supported her going to the club.

That is why I supported her going to the club.

What do you know about this club?

Is it an actual LGB club or more of a T club with LGB lipservice tacked on?

It just makes me so cross when little girls - who are probably gay - who don't want to be all girly girly are - in this day and age - seem so desperate to fit in with a tribe that is so entrenched with sexism, homophobia and gender stereotypes it makes the 1970s look enlightened.

Back in the day, lesbians didn't really have role models or women who were 'out' and just getting on with life. They would seek out sportswomen, singers, actors who - it was whispered - were gay and be their fans.

(Back in the 80s - my era) Girls wore DMs and boys jeans, had shaved heads and boys wore makeup and nail varnish, they had long hair and some even wore 'girls' clothes (Morrisey wore blouses that he bought from the woman's department of a well known high street department store). Boys could be beautiful, Annie Lennox shocked bible belt America and Marilyn, ahhhh Marilyn was a venus. Boy George looked like a chick too.

What am I saying? People experimented and played with their outer image/persona but their inner essence - their biology - could not be changed and no one pretended it could. Gay or straight, that's ok. But the modern themes and obsession with 'changing sex' is nothing ore than regressive and homophobic.

People are signing up for trendy things they don't really understand because a tweet or meme told them to.

Don't 'feel like a girl' - what's that supposed to mean?

You can fancy girls and still be a girl!
You can want to wear mens cut jeans and DMs and still be a girl.

You can shave your head and still be a girl.
Get a face full of piercings and a tattoo of a pin-up girl (like Amy Winehouse) and still be a girl.
You can reject every 'female' stereotype going and still be a girl.

Yes - being a girl means you will most likely get your bum pinched, get groped and have creepy guys try to look at your boobs. That's on them, not on you. You can't pretend it away - you learn to deal with it and get stronger as a result.

I wish your DD happiness and that she finds it within herself - not following a tribe, not with outer representations - but within herself,

They actually has a long use of being used as a singular pronoun. It's really nothing new. To the people who've suggested not using it, it doesn't take much to be pleasant. It's not hurting anyone. Is being civil so much to ask?
www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they
And I disagree with the idea that it's sexist. I know I'm not a girl/woman/whatever, but I know people who are girls and dress like boys and they know they're girls and that's fine, that identity fits them. I know it's helped me to define myself like that