dd has just told me she is non-binary

[steppemum]

So, dd is nearly 15.
a couple of years ago she went through a time of questioning, during which she wouldn't talk to us. Finally she told us she was gay. Fine, of course we supported her, and had lots of chats about it, suported her in coming out to the rest of the family etc. No big deal. Relieved that she was chatting about it again, and there were many conversations about stereotypes etc.
She goes to a youth club for LGBT kids and we have fully supported that.

Now she has decided she is non- binary and wants to change her name and pronouns.
Now I don't believe you can change biological sex, and feel that in supporting her to say she is neither, we are saying that a woman cannot be anything she wants to be. She is a women who rejects stereotypes, fine, reject away! But she cannot be neither female nor male, she is female, whether she likes it or not.

I need to support her, and will use her new name but I cannot work out how to go forward with this.

Bloody mermaids and all they teach, until 10 years ago, she would have just been a 'tomboy' and she could have been who she liked, now we need a label and pronouns and name change etc

Just not sure how to move forward.
Need support not slagging off

I’m a woman - but not what the stereotypes say I ought to be - I never have been and always strived since I was a teenager to not be/do/act that way. I don’t know what ‘being a woman’ is supposed to be anyway. But I am a woman though.

I am a woman whether I like it or not because of my anatomy; chromosomes and reproductive organs. To say otherwise or to invent some midway state is pure silliness.

I reckon your daughter is trying to fit in with a tribe at that club. Being a lesbian can be problematic amongst that crowd; easier to fit in if one is non-binary, whatever that means.

She might be ‘happy’ at the club but I suspect it is still dangerous for her. I’d worry that she might try to fit in because she knows she is not mainstream but does not want to be rejected by her fringe tribe either because then she’d have no one.

I can’t believe we’ve jumped a generation ‘I hope my child isn’t gay’ to ‘I really hope my girl’s a lesbian’.

YetAnotherSpartacus I believe you are spot on. The T in LGBT dominates in those clubs, and nonbinary is a form of T.

Tell her you think you're non-binary, too. Join a support group. Pick a new name for her to call you (mum is so gendered...) Be the most non-binary person on the planet. She'll soon get over it...

Tell her that her nan is non binary. That ought to do it. And technically my grandma was very NB - as was my grandfather and even my dad. Come to think of it my brother hates football and had very long hair as a young man.

it doesn't take much to be pleasant. It's not hurting anyone. Is being civil so much to ask?

Didn't take long, did it?

Women, be nice. Why can't you just get back in your box and be nice?

Compelled speech isn't pleasant. Disregarding women as a sex class isn't civil. Telling young lesbians they are probably the other sex very much is hurting people. So no, we won't be nice. Deal with it.

Get her out if that club and unplug the internet

They actually has a long use of being used as a singular pronoun. It's really nothing new.

Not entirely true. The context is completely different now. They was used where the name or sex of an individual wasnt known to the speaker/author. This is still the case today. Now transgender folk would prefer it to be used when a person doesnt conform to a gender. Gender didn't exist in the 1930's where the "it's always been used" news is driven from.

This world would be a much less confusing/conforming place if we completely got rid of all gender terminology. Because it doesn't matter. What matters is being a healthy human if either sex, who dresses how they like, dates who they like, and doesn't suffer abuse or discrimination as a result. It's the consistent need to label that triggers disagreements and the polar views that exist today.

I

They actually has a long use of being used as a singular pronoun. It's really nothing new.

Again with the minimising and deflecting.

Up there with "I am legally a woman" and "denying existence"

It's all just complete fucking bullshit.

Tell her you think you're non-binary, too. Join a support group. Pick a new name for her to call you (mum is so gendered...) Be the most non-binary person on the planet. She'll soon get over it...

Tell her that her nan is non binary. That ought to do it. And technically my grandma was very NB - as was my grandfather and even my dad. Come to think of it my brother hates football and had very long hair as a young man.

Wow, do you know any teens? Any gentle, caring young women who are struggling with who they are?

Sure, just take the mick.

Yup.

So explain to your child how this is sexist and based on stereotypes, possibly even a fear of growing up and body changes, of wanting to fit in with a group and be ‘accepted’.

This generation didn’t invent sex or love or tribes - every generation thinks it did, and that the previous generations know nothing, and were never young. Show her photos of you as a teen, and your parents, grandparents. Tell her what you did that shocked your parents. Every teenager struggles with identity - who they are, how they should think and feel. If they are lucky they don’t fall in with groups of people who can cause them harm or distress.

This is why they need to understand that these issues are evergreen - the styles may change but the issues are the same. And it works out ok as they mature and grow up.

Same issues, different names.

Wow, do you know any teens? Any gentle, caring young women who are struggling with who they are?

Yes, I do - and was one myself. To paraphrase Phoebe Waller-Bridge - how many of us would have claimed to be non-women when we were kids to escape the pressures of being young women?

You've had some good advice above. Reframe what non-binary is. If one of us is non-binary, then we all are, because gender is just sexist stereotypes.

I would seriously reconsider letting her go to the club without an adult. She's 14. As you said, Mermaids et al, are filling kids' heads with sexist, harmful rhetoric. Your daughter is being exposed to that. It's like letting her join a cult.

How much time is she spending on the Internet? Can you get her out into the real world? Maybe both of you do some volunteer work that supports women?

I don't agree that now is the time to give her space. You've done that and she's come out, which is great. But now she's crossed over into the extreme. I would call this crisis time.

Steppemum has s good point, this is a tribal teen thing for most, and fact is, by the definitions used, most people are non binary. Including mums dad's aunts uncles grandma etc. The idea that older people don't understand what teens are like is also as old as the hills! We've all been there.

Non binary is the thing I can't get my head around.
I understand people truly believing they were born in the wrong body, (although I think there are some people in the media who take things too far), I personally think that true trans people just want to live their life as the person they want to be and be happy, I also think there are some Leila who like drama. And I do think we are seeing a number of people doing things for effect/drama.
But I don't really understand how non binary works. I'm not sure I'll ever understand everything though.
A couple of weeks ago I heard on the radio so minor celeb identified as "queer"
I still thought that was a word that wasn't supposed to be used anymore.
Good luck OP navigating this difficult time, think the main thing you can do it be there for her and do your best. X

I would definitely be looking at the youth club, where the emphasis may be more on the T.

Just checking that it isn't PRISM in Coventry, where serious safeguarding concerns were raised over the appointment of Aimee Challenor (now removed from post thankfully)?

coventryobserver.co.uk/news/exclusive-transgender-activist-aimee-challenor-no-longer-in-coventry-lib-dem-post-amid-investigation-into-safeguarding-complaints/

Maybe just take comfort in the fact that they're trying to feel out who they are in their own way, they could be experimenting with gender like this to help figure out who they are, I thought I was bi and proclaimed that I was during my teens but now I realise i'm straight, I just really like women from an art point of view, I wanna look like them not be with them. Maybe they will be they for the rest of their life, or maybe they will refer to themselves as she again in a couple years.

You taught her that she was a women who could be anything she wanted to be and now they're telling you that they're not a she they're a they, which honestly yes I struggle with the sound of it but they're coming to you for support and love and I think you've just gotta roll with it.

My comment about Do you know any teens was because both posters quoted were basically - ha ha just tell them your gran does it and they will desist.

I don't recognise that either as a way I would deal with my teens, or as something that would put them off.
These are not just light hearted decisions.

We do lots together, we are close, she is 'out in th real world' plenty, she does loads of extra curricula activities not remotely connected to LGBT issues.

No, the club is not in Coventry.

There has been loads of good advice here, I just felt those two comments were very wide of the mark.

So explain to your child how this is sexist and based on stereotypes, possibly even a fear of growing up and body changes, of wanting to fit in with a group and be ‘accepted’.

We've been through all of that, we talked about it loads, we've been having conversations about gender bias and stereotypes and trans and non conformity and the feminist movement and the implications of the trans debate on womens spaces for 2+ years. I have challenged everything she has picked up from others that I think is nonsense and to be fair she has listened. But that doesn't stop her feelign the way she does.

This is not new, nor is it a 'rebellion teen' thing.

I think that she will continue to work through who she thinks she is over the next few years. I don't think 'banning the internet' and removing her from the one place she feels really at home is particularly helpful.

Please treat your child with respect. Finding your identity is a hard process, and they'll benefit from your help. What matters more to you? Helping your child properly figure themself out, or refusing to acknowledge them in the way they see themself, likely hurting them in the long term?

It really doesn't matter if it's a phase or not; they need your complete support. You should refer to them with their correct pronouns, and use their new name, even if it makes you uncomfortable. It's about their comfort more than anything, and they need a positive support network from friends and family, regardless of whether it's just a phase.

They/them pronouns are completely grammatically correct, and have a deep history, first occuring in a 14th century poem. It's likely you're not used to them as a fixture in modern society.

It's certainly interesting that you were relieved they'd come out as gay beforehand, instead of trans. I think this is an embedded problem with a certain line of thinking. I hope you take your child's feelings into account - having had firsthand experience with gender dysphoria, it feels incredibly painful.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=1pTPuoGjQsI

^ I recommend watching this video, made by ContraPoints. She highlights the intrinsic problems with the gender critical line of thinking, and her videos are insanely well-produced. I also recommend Philosophy Tube's video on Transphobia:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=yCxqdhZkxCo

as he explains it very eloquently, from an ethical, moral, and philosophical viewpoint.

I believe a lot of transphobia comes from repressed identity problems stemming from childhood socialisation. While I don't necessarily believe you're overtly transphobic, it seems to me that you're unconsciously perpetuating harmful stereotypes about trans identities. I suggest taking a deep look into your own gender.

Perhaps you feel a bit odd when someone refers to you as your name. Perhaps, sometimes, you feel trapped inside yourself, unable to escape. Perhaps on a particularly bad day, someone referring to you as the gender you were assigned at birth might make you feel slightly weird. This type of thing isn't always easy to pick up on, and it might hurt to focus specifically on that (if thats how you feel). I find taking an introspective look into your own identity can be freeing.

Once I realised how disconnected I felt from my birth name and pronouns, it was like I couldn't focus on anything else, other than the 'why do I feel this way? is this normal?' Questions like those. But eventually, I figured out my real identity and I've never looked back.

Thanks for reading

[quote cleddyf]Please treat your child with respect. Finding your identity is a hard process, and they'll benefit from your help. What matters more to you? Helping your child properly figure themself out, or refusing to acknowledge them in the way they see themself, likely hurting them in the long term?

It really doesn't matter if it's a phase or not; they need your complete support. You should refer to them with their correct pronouns, and use their new name, even if it makes you uncomfortable. It's about their comfort more than anything, and they need a positive support network from friends and family, regardless of whether it's just a phase.

They/them pronouns are completely grammatically correct, and have a deep history, first occuring in a 14th century poem. It's likely you're not used to them as a fixture in modern society.

It's certainly interesting that you were relieved they'd come out as gay beforehand, instead of trans. I think this is an embedded problem with a certain line of thinking. I hope you take your child's feelings into account - having had firsthand experience with gender dysphoria, it feels incredibly painful.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=1pTPuoGjQsI

^ I recommend watching this video, made by ContraPoints. She highlights the intrinsic problems with the gender critical line of thinking, and her videos are insanely well-produced. I also recommend Philosophy Tube's video on Transphobia:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=yCxqdhZkxCo

as he explains it very eloquently, from an ethical, moral, and philosophical viewpoint.

I believe a lot of transphobia comes from repressed identity problems stemming from childhood socialisation. While I don't necessarily believe you're overtly transphobic, it seems to me that you're unconsciously perpetuating harmful stereotypes about trans identities. I suggest taking a deep look into your own gender.

Perhaps you feel a bit odd when someone refers to you as your name. Perhaps, sometimes, you feel trapped inside yourself, unable to escape. Perhaps on a particularly bad day, someone referring to you as the gender you were assigned at birth might make you feel slightly weird. This type of thing isn't always easy to pick up on, and it might hurt to focus specifically on that (if thats how you feel). I find taking an introspective look into your own identity can be freeing.

Once I realised how disconnected I felt from my birth name and pronouns, it was like I couldn't focus on anything else, other than the 'why do I feel this way? is this normal?' Questions like those. But eventually, I figured out my real identity and I've never looked back.

Thanks for reading

Hello there - It's a horrifying situation. I'm sorry you're going through it. Well done for all you've tried to do so far, but I agree with @BuzzShitbagBobbly that many groups are now T, not LGB-friendly really. Their ideological agendas are at odds, in my opinion, as T is in effect affirming stereotypes and can feel misogynistic and even homophobic, though I'm sure all or most adults involved with the club are well-meaning. I'd agree with the Transgender Trend recommendations, and add Sasha Ayad, and Bayswater Support group. Our D started as lesbian, then non-binary, and I hope it isn't the case for you, but the next step was 'he' demiboy, stealth social transition at school and talk of testosterone, binders and 'top surgery'. There was acceleration and escalation. I completely understand the urge to respectfully affirm, but on the basis of what I have read, I believe it can be very damaging and so we have taken the opposite approach. We're making it up as we go along, but it seems to have turned the tide so far, and we're doing our clumsy best to finesse matters to avoid any more gender-questioning friends than necessary and build up other friendships, family ties, active pursuits etc. Not easy in Tier 2 of course. The key for us has been separating her struggles (feelings of loneliness, disliking body, concerns about others' opinions, fear of growing up, feeling of unexplained 'difference' from various nonconformist behaviours associated with ADHD etc) which we are trying to help with, from an inexperienced, unqualified thirteen-year-old's self-diagnosis ie 'it's because I'm [insert here one of the 51 notional 'genders']' and treatment plan. I think of it like anorexia - they don't know what's best for them, though they still need respect and gentleness. We've met the school and they've come into line, and are helping with a bedroom makeover to help with a sense of self and control. Looking into martial arts and have restricted online and app access, with grumpy consent. Ours is a bit younger, so it's probably a bit easier for us, though it feels like the hardest thing we've ever been through. If we allow teens (and their selected peer group and online echo chamber) to self-diagnose and prescribe, it probably won't be ok. GOOD LUCK.

A lot of these replies are ridiculous. If you loved your child you would do anything to make them comfortable and happy. They arent going to respect you if you dont respect them. Call them by their appropriate pronouns, its not that hard to get used to and if it makes them happy the do it! I find it disgusting you have told us that they are non-binary yet continue to refer to them as a girl/female/use the wrong pronouns. You are aware of their discomfort yet continue to push for them to be a girl when they arent. Educate yourself and do what you can to make them comfortable or they will leave you as soon as they possibly can and distance themselves. you of all people should be there for them, they are going to struggle with people miss-gendering them and could even be bullied, you need to be there for them or they are going to go down a dark route, possibly leading to dysmorphia and depression. Do better.

Parents are not obliged to do anything to make their child happy if they feel it is against their best interests. That’s the point of being a parent. The OP is clearly a thoughtful and engaged mother. OP, I think you’re doing just fine. Hold your line but keep communication open.

Hi! This is just my take on the whole situation! Your Darling CHILD has trusted you enough to come out to you as non-binary this is a massive credit to you! I was way too afraid to come out to my parent at their age so you must have created a safe environment so you should be praised for that. However your understanding of sex and gender seem to have let you down massively. Sex and gender are too completely different things!!! And even sex is not as clear cut as you may think! Gender is the societal and cultural construct that people choose how to define. Where as sex is the biological characteristics one is born with. There are 6 scientifically recognised sexes!!! You are more likely to meet someone who is intersex (neither biologically male or female) than you are to meet a ginger person! Your child isn’t confused, they aren’t just being rebellious, they are choosing to live authenticity as them! I am certain they are aware of the struggles they will face because of this teenagers are smarter than we give them credit for. The bottom line is if you don’t love them enough to accept them for who they are then you will loose them. I hope you can see past what you think is “right” or “wrong” and love your wonderfully unique child!