daughter loathes me (long)

[matilda57]

I don't know if anyone can shed some light on what is happening between me and my daughter. It may seem obvious, but it is very difficult to live with.
About 18 months ago her father (my ex husband) was killed in an accident. My daughter is 19. Her father was abusive and made our lives hell (leaving him made very little difference). HOwever, I encouraged a relationship between him and our kids and, come the end, they were very close. As you can imagine, losing him suddenly has been very tough on my kids.
My daughter has however developed an extremely powerful hatred of me. She literally loathes my entire being - she is phobic about me. However, she is doing A levels (a year late because of the disruption of losing her dad) and although she moved out and cut me off entirely, she hasn't been able to cope with living independently, coping with her bereavement, and negotiating A levels. She eventually came to live here with me (and her brother) but the terms are that I cannot in any way express even the slightest indication of myself as a person. I have largely concentrated on looking after her physically - food, lifts, money (though I am extremely strapped myself - thanks, it has to be said, to her wealthy dad who fought hard in the courts to make sure I got nothing). She is having a breakdown probably, and wants a 'perfect' life, which means no stress whatsoever in any area of her life. She has been here for 2 weeks but this morning I made the 'mistake' of telling her something about myself (relatively small). Her reaction has been intense. I have just dropped her off somewhere and I am now receiving copious extremely abusive texts. She can send 20 or so texts, a torrent of intense abuse.
I can pull off being a completely blank slate for the duration of her exams and will watch that I don't 'slip up' by indicating anywhere along the line that I am human. But I am very concerned about how she is going about things. Her behaviour is also uncannily like her father's, who was intensely controlling, and this is a great personal challenge for me. I understand more of why her father behaved the way he did, but as a reason, not an excuse.
She says she can tackle issues when her exams are over, but I really don't think she will. For a while she was suicidal and told me, in detail, how she was planning to do it. This made me completely cowed to her every command - I can't risk anything else at the moment (it is not for me to be making a stand iyswim - I am not the one?). I am terrified that if I do she will carry out her threats to kill herself - it wouldn't surprise me.
I have tried to organise therapy of some kind but, sadly, none come up to scratch for her (and, again sadly, I have to agree to a large extent. Mental health provision in this country is abysmal a lot of the time). I can't afford private therapy. Years ago I had a lot of therapy myself, but what I see now bears no resemblance to the helpful therapy I had then. Therapists seem to do more harm than good, with their convoluted theories that seem far removed from what it is actually like to be a human being, particularly one who is suffering. In short, I don't trust them; though I despair about what can be done about my daughter and the awful situation we are in. We are/she is in absolute crisis.
Am I really the evil bully she says I am I wonder? I have dug deep on this, and can't see what she means. I haven't been perfect - no way! - and the years (all my kids' lives!) of being caught in the endless bombs her father set off took their toll on me and on our family life. It has been hell on earth, despite trying my hardest to get free from him and his controlling abuse; as well as trying to establish as much normality as possible in the circumstances.

I think she is in need of professional help.She is torturing and punishing you You do ned to talk but she sounds as if that would only be possible with someone to mediate I really feel for you and hope someone sees your thread and has concrete advice.

There is absolutely no reason why you should put up with this - being unallowed to show that you're human, abusive texts etc. She needs a lot of professional help. I have a nearly 18 year old DD who has been diagnosed with depression and about to do A Levels so I have a lot of sympathy and know all about living on tenterhooks, but not anything like on your scale. Is there anywhere else she can live for the time being - family or friends? Does her brother have any influence? My DD is having Cognitive Behavioural Therapy on the NHS (via the GP) and it's fantastic - may be worth checking out - but meanwhile, you deserve a life.

I agree that it is vital you seek out some professional help for your family.
Even though you say you don't trust therapists, I think you need someone who is emotionally uninvolved with the situation to advise.
Not all therapists are the same.
Although you clearly want to support your DD during this very difficult time, I think it is important that you also make it clear to her that the way she is currently treating you is unacceptable.
Many people endure tragic and difficult circumstances without being abusive to those they live with.
I hope you all find the support you require.

Bloody hell, Matilda! Sounds as if you have got out of one abusive relationship and ended up in another.
I know she is your daughter and has been trough/going trough some dreadful times but the way she is treating you is not on. You have the right to be treated with respect and care.
I'm really sorry I don't have any practical advice but wanted to send you some supportive vibes.

This is far to complicated for you to deal with on your own. She needs professional help ASAP, possibly even as an in-patient, as you should not have to live like this.

She is expecting you to behave like an automaton, and that will not help her with future relationships. And in a way it does not matter at this stage whether any therapists come up to scratch for her - she does not sound in a position to make rational decisions about it. I doubt if anything would come up tio her expectations because basically she just wants it all to go away. And she is using you to shield her.

This is just my opinion, I dont have any actual experience of this, but it must be awful for all of you. You should be emerging from the shadow of your ex, not reliving it all again.

If he had a personality disorder or something similar, it is possible that she has inherited similar tendencies.

Please, please get a psychiatric referral!

thank you all - it helps to get some perspective on this.

Yes he did have a personality disorder, with a lot of money to indulge it. When he died it was as though she took up the baton and ran with it (excuse me while I HOWL here SOB SOB SOB). It was uncanny how she changed. She is as desperately unhappy as he was.

I despair tbh. I can't see a way out. We have been through local mental health services and they are seriously and worryingly crap. She is due to inherit a LOT of money soon. Maybe, with it, she will get some help. Though I fear she will use it the way he did (to avoid her life, to control everything and everyone around her).

Sorry, can't help panicking (trying not to).

Please keep the replies coming - it helps.

God Matilda, that sounds bloody awful. Guess she's acting out the way her father behaved. Agree you need professional help despite not trusting therapists - I don't know of any way you can handle this yourself, tbh.

Can you get an out of area referral from your GP?

What support to you have Matilda, from other family/close friends?

I think you need to focus all your energies on regaining some control - why does she dictate the terms? Why are you giving her money and lifts? This doesn't have to be the sort of showdown you're avoiding, just a gradual reassertion of your rights as an individual and of your position as the parent. You sound like a really nice, caring person and one day I am sure she will realise how lucky she is to have you.

I'm sorry to say not a lot ShinyHappy. Here's the story (outlandish as it is..)
When I left abusive (very very charming) ex, he made a beeline for my family... who fell for his charms, and I was cast out of the family, he taking my place (at all the family functions etc). Eventually, my quiet mum made a stand and said she wasn't prepared to put up with him taking my place, and my parents are to this day very supportive. HOwever, my siblings are not, and I have finally cut off from them (good riddance). THis includes my twin sister, who has been treacherous in the extreme (I see now why I was attracted to marry someone so abusive - I was used to it.)
To the ex's family I am the evil witch he - very convincingly - portrayed me as, and probate has been tough going (they have fought to make sure kids don't get their inheritance - fearing I may get my hands on some of it? Wanting to control my kids with their vast wealth?). They have been unsuccessful, and the inheritance is due to be paid soon.
My daughter is sick of being part of the outcast side of the family, and has run to both sides of the family for support. For a while she lived with my twin sister (though that is far from straightforward tbh - worrying abuse in that family - though at least my daughter was physically taken care of iyswim). I really do understand this. She wants to be included and have 'family', she wants to be close to her dad's family who are grieving their dad/son/brother/husband (he married again). I understand this. But what can I do - disappear? I will always be their mum and, if it helped, I would disappear, but I have a 16 yr old boy to get through the end of his childhood. I can't go just yet. I hang around wondering what on earth is the best way to go about all this. It's not the most jolly situation to be in LOL.
I have no doubt that if I did 'disappear' - with the door always open for my kids - they would eventually work all this out, to whatever degree, and come and find me. It's not as simple as the 'goodies' and the 'baddies' for them is it? The family/s haven't been horrible to them, but to their mum.
I realise this makes ME sound like I'm not all there upstairs LOL. But I do think this legacy is all part of ex's abuse. I had hoped it died with him, but it seems not.
I even wonder if the conflict in my daughter is that she feels guilty for 'betraying' me by running to my 'enemies', and it is doing her head in. I have said I understand her wanting family and that I support her in it. Not that I can say a lot you understand.
The toughest thing is that 'I' am the fly in the ointment in all this. If I weren't around it would be plain sailing.
But I am!

Sometimes children (and your DD is still a child!) push the boundaries but are then scared of the responsibility that comes with it. Could some of her anger towards you be because you didnt take over for her and protect her from what has been a pretty crap life?

I still think you would need help to sort that out. Could you ask your GP for a referral to a mental health service elsewhere if you have not been helped by your local one? Or adults rather than adolescent, or vice versa?

It sounds as if you have done incedibly well to get yourself out of such an abusive relationship, not just with your ex but also with members of your family. Yet I can't help getting from your post that you seem to be blaming yourself for how your daughter is feeling/coping. Please don't! You seem to have done so much yourself!
I agree with Hassled that you need to take back some control. You are the parent, it is your house and also, your life too.
By all means be there for both of your children but having boundaries for both of them is perfectly reasonable. By boundaries, I mean what is an acceptable way to behave towards you etc.
I would also urge you to talk to someone, gp perhaps, about what other help may be on offer.

Your daughter is kicking back at you because you are the reliable constant in her life and she knows you will love her whatever. So she does need you.

She has had a difficult time. It's hard just being 19 without all the stuff she has been through.

Her behaviour to you is unacceptable and I think that you need to be firm about this. Can you negotiate a contract of what you each expect from each other and what should happen if the contract is broken?

I think she needs an outlet for the bad stuff - ask her what this could be if it stops being you.

Matilda, first of all hugs to you. It sounds like a very traumatic situation. Second...I used to be the daughter from hell myself at that age. Soooooo from that side of the fence...obviously NOT the same situation. I lashed out at my mother as she was the 'easy' one to get at, everyone else fought back. This made me despise her even more. But at the same time I would cry my eyes out after having a screaming fit at her because I was hurting her and myself. I was suicidal and depressed. I like your daughter just wanted my mother to be a non person. It just hurt too much having her in contact with me, anything, ANYTHING she said or did rubbed me up the wrong way. It was like I was constantly at boiling over point.

At the time I lived at home, my family even talked of getting me evicted. I don't know how I would have coped living independantly. I had not the money nor the nouse to know what to do probably. I had no family to go to, I spent a lot of time at my bf's house, but the problems were there too, everywhere I turned people did not know or understand what was wrong. What would have helped is therapy, for me without family members. I still think moving out would be a good option, with someone more mature? Not a family member.

FWIW I don't think she would be treating you this way if she didn't love you. As ridiculous as it seems. As for her comment of you bullying. Could you just sit and listen to her further on that one? If she has memories of this then this could be causing some of her fury. I know what I'm saying would be extremely tough for you. But it could help. If only my mother had sat and listened to me without telling me she didn't remember incidents which I remember happening or it didn't happen like that. Anything to brush the matter under the carpet. Because of her doing this I am no longer in contact with her as I want a family life with truth in it.

I also think you need to reset boundry's with her. The more she pushes you, the further she will go the next time. If she's talking of committing suicide and how to do it...well reality is very different to imagination. Sounds very melodramatic. Could be trying to cause you pain knowing you love her...

So hard to know what else to say, hope some of the above helps in some way...ignore all if you want...but I think you asking 'why are you so angry at me?' and listening with no interuption may be a therapy session in itself. Don't envy your position Matilda, you sound you have been strong so far in splitting from your twin and ex dh. Ask for councelling for yourself too, again?

hugs to you again...all the best of luck with it all....xxxxx

You people are lovely!
We've had the long talks - or, rather, she has. This was at a time when I made it clear that she couldn't stay here if she was abusive and disruptive. She was, so I took her back to her flat (this was probably the fifth time I 'threw her out' ie I had set a very clear boundary that she flouted, so I carried out my threat). Then I panicked bcs I thought she'd kill herself. Someone suggested I go to her, saying sorry. Tbh I think this may have been a mistake, bcs she took this as weakness and was intensely abusive for many months. However, we talked - or she talked - that night, all night (mobile to mobile! She refused to see me). I listened, for hours, saying barely anything. I should have stopped it before, but I was so afraid she'd kill herself. I also did steer the conversation away when her 'conversation' deteriorated (when she got too tired). I felt that maybe she needed to get all that out.
Though she continued to attack and attack and, this thing having humbled me tbh, I thoroughly apologised for all the things she accused me of that I recognised (but only if I recognised it - or if not I just said sorry that whatever it was had hurt her). She was in a very bad way that night and I do believe she could have killed herself. The attacks continued and, eventually, I said (texted, after copious abusive texts) that I had nothing left, that I had given her everything I had - eg apologised sincerely and deeply - and that endlessly beating me wouldn't produce any more. The abusive texts stopped.
It feels like she wants to hang me on a cross, for me to take the blame; so she doesn't have to take any responsibility for her life.
This is so like her father (and my twin) and, having been bitten these two times (the second time very seriously. Though the first time too!), I don't easily assume that all the accusations levelled at me are true, as I did with both those former people. I don't assume there is some mystery transgression that I can't see bcs I'm so wicked. Etc. (yawn)
But if I have hurt her, then I am deeply sorry. I've said that enough times. Maybe she is having a breakdown and is devoured with grief and stress, and all the past has risen up and bit her (and me!). Fair enough. Maybe this will pass? and I've just got to sit it out, keep saying sorry, keep being there? I really don't know. I have nearly £2K coming in a few weeks (back maintenance LOL) and perhaps I can buy some therapy for her/us/all with that. Or get her to see a homeopath.
Or buy some nice shoes. No, maybe not

uh-oh MARTYR ALERT. it was a joke, but it doesn't look like one LOL.

Wish my mum had done that listening and apologising and acknowledging hurt! Spoke to my dh about this posting this morning and he stated the obvious. Your the scapegoat. Everything is your fault and all would be WONDERFUL if you would just disapear. Made me smile the "some mystery transgression that I can't see bcs I'm so wicked. Etc. (yawn)". Can tell you've been here before.

Well, at least you've had two experiences already so hopefully are stronger and wiser for that.

Just had brief look on web...
www.scapegoat.demon.co.uk/

Quoted from above website

DEFINING SCAPEGOATING

Scapegoating is a hostile social - psychological discrediting routine by which people move blame and responsibility away from themselves and towards a target person or group. It is also a practice by which angry feelings and feelings of hostility may be projected, via inappropriate accusation, towards others. The target feels wrongly persecuted and receives misplaced vilification, blame and criticism; he is likely to suffer rejection from those who the perpetrator seeks to influence. Scapegoating has a wide range of focus: from "approved" enemies of very large groups of people down to the scapegoating of individuals by other individuals. Distortion is always a feature.

There you go, you can join the 'scapegoat socity' now! Learn something new everyday. Offers help on 'undoing' scapegoating too.

Hope it helps...now go buy those shoes and a handbag to match.

I would like to know how your going on with it all. And to offer a bit of moral support if you need it...you have my sympathy with it all

First I think you have to accept that if your daughter kills herself it is because she is mentally ill. You can not prevent that happening if the person concerned will not accept help.

Secondly you have a right to your life too and if you make yourself too much of a doormat your daughter will have no respect for you at all. I probably would do that for the duration of her exams - but only because they will be over soon. If she is inheriting money and I was broke I would not give her any, I would insist on a signed loan or let her borrow against those expectations.

Once the exams are over it is your turn to tell her just how bad her behaviour makes you feel and that you will not continue to tolerate it. That whatever you have done you have a right to peace and freedom from abuse in your own home and if she can't live with you without abusing you she must live elsewhere.

However you also need to consider what you have been doing wrong. All the therapists are useless - do they say things you don't want to hear? Your family are all against you - what have you done to make them that way? It sounds as though there are things you need to change and maybe you haven't really accepted that yet. Perhaps you also want to blame everyone else and not accept you have done things wrong? That may simply be that you alowed them to maltreat you - but you have to take responsibility for what you did too. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but I had problems with my own mother and her refusal to accept that she could have acted differently was part of my anger at her. I was never as abusive as your daughter - that is her illness talking - but I can understand her frustration.

matilda, your ex sounds a bit like mine. He had everything set up for around 10 years, with me as the scapegoat, and until a couple of months ago, even though we were divorced, he would come to my house to blame me, get money etc whenever he wanted (unlike yours, he doesnt have money to indulge his fantasies). This is a horrible situation, you sound like an easy-going person, like me - why do these self-proclaimed "strong" people want to control us??
I have now got a court order forbidding him from coming near us, but I know the problems are not yet over.

Agree with the others, your dd is perpetuating her fathers behaviour. OK, she is 19, but some people have several children, and are married, hold down jobs and responsible lives at this age. Please, put yourself first. Not easy, but it is an indirect way of putting your children first.

My god, poor you. You can't deal with this on your own, you really need help with her mental health because not doing so may risk your own. Have you talked to your GP? What about Mind? I wonder if they might have some good advice. Please stop blaming yourself though, this isn't your fault.

I've read the whole thread now and really feel for you. I don't think you should 'disappear' or consider doing so either, why shoudl you? And I think you might need to consider a VERY clear delineation between your relationships with family members and your daughters relationships with family members. I think you should refuse to discuss anyone in the family with your daughter too, as it is very unlikely to be constructive.

It sounds really difficult. I think for now the priority is the A levels which are very near assuming she is doing them next month. Can everything just be put on hold for a few more weeks? It sounds as though you were managing that with just feeding her and keeping out of the way. Then there will be a natural break as presumably she goes off to university in September.

I think you and she need to develop an adult relationship not try to get back into some under 18 monther and daughter relationship. In a sense your relationship with her won't be so important as she's going off forging her own life so I would concentrate not on how your your twin is bad and your family is difficult with you and your daughter dreadful but on what you want to do with your life apart from the children, new friends, new hobbies, fun things you like to do and just leave the family out of it, make them unimportant, don't let them get to you. Get a boy friend. Don't make her problems yours.

What do these abusive texts say? What are the things she's not happy with that you do or say? My student children have often worked away for whole summers very happily or travelled. Can she not spend the summer away with friends so you and she get a bit of peace and space?

I couldn't read this thread without adding a message a support for you Matilda.

I have no general adivice or grand plan as so many people seem to be influencing the relationship between you and your daughter, so it really is complex. I definitely agree that she is using you as a scapegoat and you are the focus of her frustrations because she trusts you to take it, and loves you.

I also think the inheritance could be a big demotivating factor for her to get help or recognise she has mental problems. The money will mean she can house herself and be independent no matter how she treats those around her and it will cushion her from many practical problems. How many 19 year olds can say that? It is too much power, too young IMO.

What happens if she is diagnosed as mentally ill? Could this ultimately affect her access to the inheritance? Is she afraid of this, or feel that you are pushing the therapy onto her as a way of preventing her from being able to access the inheritance?

What is she wanting to do after A levels? is she going to university or college or wanting to start work? Some of her friends will be leaving home now. Perhaps the best you can do is help her sort out a place at college or a job, find accommodation and then wave her off, just like lots of other parents are doing with their 19 year olds.

Whatever misgivings you have, I think perhaps now is the time to distance yourself and step back after you have seen her throught the exams.

Can you try to turn your conversations with her to practical sorting out for her future - where she will stay, what she will do. Stop going over old ground and saying sorry as it sounds like you cannnot say it more. When she is ranting to you about past mistakes, do all you can to divert the conversation to her future - practical, concrete, details like sending off forms, phoning the accommodation office, etc. If she totally refuses to seek therapy then leave it. She may change her mind only when she is in a different environment with different people.

What will she be like, I wonder, if you show her you are planning life around her - she going one way, you going another? seeig you concentrate on small amd more solvable plans of your own, rather than big, unsolvable issues of hers may change the dynamics of your relationship. Her behaviour IMO is forcing you to stop thinking about the future for either you or her, and that is a very bad thing. Don't let her do this.

If she is not looking for a course at college, than put your energies into getting her away from your home and doing something at least vaguely constructive with her life - staying with other family members or renting a flat and taking some training or gap year travelling. At least the inheritance means she can pay for travel and courses she is interested in.

How is your 16 year old son in all this? It sounds like your daugher may be grabbing all your attention for herself and the risk or your relationship with your son. If you and he are close this will keep you strong and reinforce the fact that you are a good parent. Don't ever let your daughter threaten this.

Must dash now, but hope something there helps.

Thank you all again! It is so helpful to get all this out and to hear what you've got to say. This situation is overwhelming and utterly miserable.
I do think dd has 'inherited' her father's whatever-it-was. Abuse? I think it goes like that - something about the kids identifying with the 'strong' side, unable to face the 'weakness' of the abused. It is so wretched though - it certainly isn't making her happy to be gripped by this hatred.
Ally, I have done a lot of 'work' on the scapegoat thing, but it seems to trundle on regardless. I dont' think I encourage it? In fact, resolutely resisting it seems to cause the perpetrators to go wild, outraged that I won't carry their sh*t (can you swear on here?). But that link is great - I will look at it. I'm embarrassed to be a scapegoat, but is that part of it ie taking the embarrassment that belongs to the perpetrators, which they won't take themselves. I have obviously thought about why this pattern seems to repeat endlessly - do I subconsciously ask for it? Etc
Tatt, I have also thought about why I am falling out with therapists - lately, every one. Is there some mystery I'm not getting? But as I've said before in a previous post, I recognise that statement and I'm not going there again - I've been beaten with that stick too many times in my life. As yous can imagine, this whole thing with my daughter has broken my heart: first my twin, then my husband, now my daughter - it is my worst nightmare that my kids would turn against me when those two key people did (as well as the rest of my siblings). As a result of all this blowing up with my daughter I have sincerely dug deep to see if there is something going on with me that I haven't previously recognised. So far, I have not found a sneaky gremlin that I didn't know was there. Though I am aware that my posts sound whiter than white...
Maybe I'll get up my courage and post my faults LOL. They aren't pretty LOL.
But here I am, blaming myself again, endlessly sifting to find out what I've done to cause all this. It feels boring, like a cycle I've been round so many times. It doesn't have any life about it?