daughter loathes me (long)

[matilda57]

I don't know if anyone can shed some light on what is happening between me and my daughter. It may seem obvious, but it is very difficult to live with.
About 18 months ago her father (my ex husband) was killed in an accident. My daughter is 19. Her father was abusive and made our lives hell (leaving him made very little difference). HOwever, I encouraged a relationship between him and our kids and, come the end, they were very close. As you can imagine, losing him suddenly has been very tough on my kids.
My daughter has however developed an extremely powerful hatred of me. She literally loathes my entire being - she is phobic about me. However, she is doing A levels (a year late because of the disruption of losing her dad) and although she moved out and cut me off entirely, she hasn't been able to cope with living independently, coping with her bereavement, and negotiating A levels. She eventually came to live here with me (and her brother) but the terms are that I cannot in any way express even the slightest indication of myself as a person. I have largely concentrated on looking after her physically - food, lifts, money (though I am extremely strapped myself - thanks, it has to be said, to her wealthy dad who fought hard in the courts to make sure I got nothing). She is having a breakdown probably, and wants a 'perfect' life, which means no stress whatsoever in any area of her life. She has been here for 2 weeks but this morning I made the 'mistake' of telling her something about myself (relatively small). Her reaction has been intense. I have just dropped her off somewhere and I am now receiving copious extremely abusive texts. She can send 20 or so texts, a torrent of intense abuse.
I can pull off being a completely blank slate for the duration of her exams and will watch that I don't 'slip up' by indicating anywhere along the line that I am human. But I am very concerned about how she is going about things. Her behaviour is also uncannily like her father's, who was intensely controlling, and this is a great personal challenge for me. I understand more of why her father behaved the way he did, but as a reason, not an excuse.
She says she can tackle issues when her exams are over, but I really don't think she will. For a while she was suicidal and told me, in detail, how she was planning to do it. This made me completely cowed to her every command - I can't risk anything else at the moment (it is not for me to be making a stand iyswim - I am not the one?). I am terrified that if I do she will carry out her threats to kill herself - it wouldn't surprise me.
I have tried to organise therapy of some kind but, sadly, none come up to scratch for her (and, again sadly, I have to agree to a large extent. Mental health provision in this country is abysmal a lot of the time). I can't afford private therapy. Years ago I had a lot of therapy myself, but what I see now bears no resemblance to the helpful therapy I had then. Therapists seem to do more harm than good, with their convoluted theories that seem far removed from what it is actually like to be a human being, particularly one who is suffering. In short, I don't trust them; though I despair about what can be done about my daughter and the awful situation we are in. We are/she is in absolute crisis.
Am I really the evil bully she says I am I wonder? I have dug deep on this, and can't see what she means. I haven't been perfect - no way! - and the years (all my kids' lives!) of being caught in the endless bombs her father set off took their toll on me and on our family life. It has been hell on earth, despite trying my hardest to get free from him and his controlling abuse; as well as trying to establish as much normality as possible in the circumstances.

missed your post tigermoth! THANK YOU. like a good square meal LOL.
I'll have to print up this thread, there is so much good stuff here.
I'm on my way out too and hope to reply later. Thank you all again - I can't tell you how valuable your comments have been.

Just a thought, Matilda, but have you looked into Person-Centred therapy? I noticed that you have said that you have been given lots of theories which you haven't found helpful. P-C doesn't really do theories, so may be helpful to you at the moment.
I know money may be a problem but most training courses have almost-qualified students offering very well-supervised counselling either free or much reduced.

Matilda

I am with a therapist and have been for 2.5 yrs and I feel I go round in circles and get bored with it at times. Tiring looking at all your issues thro over and over again. But relatively regularly I still find things out about myself.

I think your dd being encouraged to move out is a good one. Sounds harsh but she will hopefully have the money soon. But at least you can offer an ultimatum after her A levels. Stop abusing me in my own home or move out. Let her know you are there for her, and you will go to any therapy sessions with her that she should choose to do but as far as you are concerned the abuse has to stop.

Like someone said, looking after yourself is looking after your child. You just cannot think clearly when you are in the thick of it all ie can't see the woods for the trees. I agree with no discussion of family members to anyone but them but I guess you do that?

Curious as to what your faults are...but that would make you quite vunrable to put them openly on here...everyone has their own opinion some stronger than others!

xxxxx

Well, I can add an update to this saga, but not sure if I'm going to make any sense (how many times have I said that?)
Someone I know had a very difficult time with her teenager, who ended up on drugs, having sex left and right, and even ended up in prison. This woman's advice to me was that I just had to take it - take all that your teenager throws at you when they are in the midst of a bad crisis. At the time I said there is no way I could or even would - I was horrified at the suggestion; that boundaries are vital, and I wouldn't be abused.
However, here I am, taking stuff I never dreamed I would, putting myself completely on the back burner. At the time I thought that woman was a martyr - now I'm not so sure. Maybe this is what is meant by unconditional love. Though I wouldn't recommend it as a policy LOL, somehow I've been forced into this - there really has been no other way. My friend's daughter turned around (it was prison that did it) and, ok, not everyone has an ending like that; but I think that something about what that mother did somehow got her daughter through. I wonder about you Ally - I hope this isn't too personal - and whether things would have been different if your mum had been able to let you pour moulten lava over her till she was dead dead dead. Sorry to sound poetic, but it really does scorch and burn.
do you know what? It's like giving birth to her all over again. It effing hurts, way beyond you could even imagine it would. It has brought me to the very end of myself and, for someone who has had myself in my minds eye all my life, for once I've been knocked off of prime position. I thought that looking after myself was the best thing I could do for my kids. On paper, it is. Maybe there comes a time when all the rules don't apply, crisis time; where you scrabble about and find what works, not what you read in the books. A bit like giving birth. I have also been struck dumb by all this - I have run out of strategies (and I'm the strategy queen) and I've just had to let go and let it roll. That's a CHALLENGE when you've brought your kids up on your own practically from dot, and your kid is in agony.
She left home again (did I say that already?) and I felt wretched beyond description. When you're in the middle of emotional turmoil you can't think straight, and I couldn't get hold of why I felt I'd been plunged into darkness again. Anyway, the doorbell goes and there she is on the doorstep, looking small (she's 5' 10"), and sooooo lost. Nowhere else to go see, except to her mummy (the one she loathes). She was AWFUL at the dinner table. Me and ds looked at one another in agony it was so uncomfortable. She sat there pulsating with rage and miserableness but resolutely silent, punishing. I was getting irritable, so took myself off to watch Desperate Housewives. She called me in, and talked and talked. I didn't say anything much. She is so harsh with everything/body around her (no wonder she's so depressed). She is a completely different person to me and I realise I've imposed my values and beliefs on her - hers are different. I mean REALLY different. She's a raving tory for a start.
So I just sat there and let her be her, without insisting she was me. It was quite liberating actually LOL. Tbh I'm embarrassed that it didn't enter my head that my kids would be different to me. I thought there'd be a resemblance, however faint, somewhere along the line. Maybe there will be later but for now the girl is a total foreigner. Great though LOL.
I wonder if daughters have to 'kill' their mother to be launched into womanhood? ie two can't be on the throne, and it's time for the has-been to step down. LOL. Then when she's triumphed (the up-and-coming one) she can afford to relax. When all this started I said to my friends that there we were, me and dd, a queen and a princess - and suddenly we were queen and queen and she was seriously challenging the throne. I ferociously and instinctively held onto the crown, thinking that to abdicate wasn't the best thing for her (or me - let's be honest). Well, she's won really, but I don't feel the lesser for it tbh. I feel I've done my job, and this is the finale - you step aside. I've been deliriously thinking about 'life after children', even getting gate fever off and on. I thought I'd drift into it but it seems even with this there is a rite of passage.
Give me a break guys if I'm talking rubbish - I've been through it and feel a bit ragged tbh. I got it today - DING! - that my girl is really poorly and that I just have to do all I can to make her comfortable.

ps I have listened to all yous have said - honest. Don't want yous to think I have not listened (eg I haven't directly replied), because I have. Yous have helped me a LOT. Maybe it was feeling genuinely supported that gave me the space to plough through to something important?

matilda, what you say does make sense to me, and it sounds like you feel at a basic level ok about what you are doing, taking all this from your daugher. And right now, with A levels can totally see why you do.

You may well be right about the two queens theory. I didn't rebel a lot as a teenager, but I definitely remember a power shift between me and my mother at home.

When you say she came back home because she had nowhere else to go, do you think this will be the case when she has her inheritance and can support herself? Do you think her ties to home are emotional as well as practical? Has she plans for what she wants to happen after A levels?

dear matilda, I really do feel for you,its a horrendous situation to be in. Although your daughter is exhibiting behviour like your ex ,its important to remember she isnt him, she is a totally different person( not a particularly pleasant one at the moment). I agree with others when they say she is lashing out at you because you are safe . Has there been any issues with school or college ,other family members ,friends or is all her venom saved purely for you? One thing that worried me slightly from your posts is that you seem to have reverted back into victim role, i dont mean this in a derogatory way ,its just that if you have been in that posistion before ,its easy to fall back into the coping mechanisms victims use . She sends you abusive texts ,why dont you switch your phone off and tell her you are doing it ? If there is an emergency she can ring your landline . You say she talks and you dont seem to say anything except sorry ,where are her apologies? I can completely understand you going along with things while she does her exams but there is not rocking the boat and being a total doormat , you do deserve a lot more respect. Do you ever shout and scream back at her ? or do you sit quietly taking it ? As for not being perfect ,well welcome to the human race !!!!! I agree with another poster ,about cognitive behaviour therapy ,it would help her if she will agree to try it . The suicide talk sounds like pure unadultered emotional blackmail , I would point out to her that is she makes that descision there will be absolutely nothing you can do to stop her but that you would obvuiousley be devastated at the loss of your beautiful special daughter . Good luck and keep posting for a good old rant when you feel the need to purge!

yes Tigermoth I've been worried about what will happen when she gets her inheritance. Ds isn't due to inherit for just over a year, but hers is imminent. It's a lot of money - dear god! She is very keen to get a financial advisor and to invest. The ties between us are emotional and tbh I wonder if she's going to have to go out there and find out that money isn't everything (hopefully, she'll have a good time first though!), and I'll have to keep my gob SHUT. It's not lost on me that she'll be rich and I'll be poor.... Bcs we have been so poor (and her dad so rich) she is phobic about having no money. The bottom line is that I will always be here - whether actually, or in her head (as much as you try, you can't get rid of the influence of your mother!). Her dad was wedded to money, and it ruined him. But he had no effective parenting at all (another story). It's different for my girl. For now though dd is having a breakdown (as both her parents did at her age) and even if she does go skating off I think the ties with home, and me, will be a stabilising influence, somewhere in there. That's my hope anyway. Maybe that's why I felt gutted when she went? Bcs I've got a job to finish, something to establish, before she goes off - that is, that we're friends and the battle breaks. we don't have to be the greatest pals, but enough, even a chink, that the door is always open. She has been worried about what to do when A levels finish - she finds it very hard to not have a goal in her life. She is a dancer (amongst other things) and on Sunday was scouted (is that what you call it) at a dance class ie an agent from London spotted her and wants to sign her up. I tend to think that she has worked like a dog for 3 years (actually, more than that if you include the gruelling GCSEs) and she needs a break and to chill a bit - she has anyway planned a gap year. She is a work hard/play hard type - a geek who has a lot of fun. She was saying last night that she doesn't respect me (LOL) bcs I haven't achieved anything. ONly survived satan himself mind, and kept my family together (the career was a casualty of all that). Well I'm not finished yet girlie! She will probably go on to do something in medicine, as her grades are good - she makes damn sure of that - but I hope she has a good time dancing around the world first (dance being age-specific). She's got a lot going for her and she gets what she wants. As you are intimating Tigermoth, at the mo the intense focus is getting her through her A levels and we are both aware there has been no particular plan in place for afterwards. I'm not middle class and don't go in for the kind of forward planning that the middle classes seem to, though I am aware that she, in particular, needs structure. I think once her exams are over we'll both hit the ground running about what to do next. Thank you for flagging that up Tigermoth.

she probably won't understand what you did until she has a child herself- then she'll realise what you achieved.
I do hope she finds the professional help she needs.

Matilda, I know you are not a bad person because you are questioning yourself so much. People who dont care arent interested in their own shortcomings

But I dont know whether I can totally agree with all the people who say that matildas daughter is mentally ill. I don`T know how many here have read that huge thread about mothers, but there is a lot of interesting things on there about the mother/daughter relationships and what happens when it goes wrong.

I think its true that your daughter has nowhere else to go except to you because you are her mother. I think its really good that she feels she can do this no matter what, even though she`d rather not.

I think its fine for her to ask you not to share your feelings and thoughts with her. I spent years and years just listening to my mother`s world and her problems, and there was little space in my head for anything else. Its more than a child can cope with. Could it be the case with you and your daughter? Have you ever offloaded your emotions onto her in the past?

Also, while I understand the queen/queen theory, I donT agree with it. I dont think the princess has to kill the queen so the princess can live. I think from the day the princess is born, the queen has to make steps to prepare for the princesss queendom. Then the queen steps aside, and gives the princess the power that is rightfully hers. The queen then continues to live a fulfilling life, rewarded with the satisfaction that she had the princess in her life while she did. If the princess is happy, she will stay friends with the queen but her happiness is out of the queens control, and the queen can`t change the princess.

I DONT think mothers are <span class="italic">responsible</span> for their daughters happiness but I think empowering our children is an essential key to their happiness.

matilda, for whatever reason, your daughter is suffering. Just be the adult. Dont take this as a rejection of you- its not. Its just a girl who needs her mother to be strong <span class="italic">for</span> her. I donT think you should put up with abuse. So just as you would treat a 3 year old, just ignore the abuse. DonT rise to it. "I hate you" should be replied with "well, I love you", just like a tiny child. Sit her down and tell her that you love her but you canT put up with this and this and this.

If she really doesnt want to live with you, why suggest that youll help her find a flat of her own as soon as the A-levels are over. You can enquire about a council flat, or maybe she could get a job anywhere and start paying for her rent herself.
Tell her youll help her as much as you can, and itl be something for her to look forward to after the A-levels.
This is what I mean about empowerment. Help her to be independant. If she really cant live with you, and of course you shouldnt put up with abuse, tell her it might be nice for her to have a flat of her own. If she feels rejected, say that it doesnt have to be far, and she could come to visit as often as she likes, but maybe shed like her own space.

If she and you can work together on her post A level plans, then that might help see you through this rocky time. It will at the very least give you lots of other stuff to talk about.

And it must be scary for her - not only is she at that crossroads between leaving school and going into the big wide world, but her financial status is about to change radically. The money means she has even more choices and that in itself can be extremely stressful, of course. But it seems that she's a hard worker and driven to make something of her life, so that's got to be a positive.

You sound like a very concerned, interested parent who gives her lots of attention. Agree with Gess, she may not realise it now, but when she looks back, she will see how much support you gave her.

i think you need to release the emotional ties and history that are binding and sufforcating you both.

it seems to me that your both in a cycle of abuse and you need to opt out.

i'm no mental-health nurse, but i've been 19!

i hated my parents and i moved away to uni, and basically never came back. i stayed in contact with my family, but at arms length. my father sounds the same as your ex-h, and it was insufferable the amount of pressure to join in the tit-for-tat mind games. my family home has never had much love in it. my mum has never left my dad, even though we have tried to convince her to, for the sake of her own mental health (she has Schizophrenia). Now she is taking on his personality traits, which is scary in itself.

for your own sake, i would cuts the bonds that she has on you - at 19 she is a grown-up not a child and you must respect her decisions (even if they are quite ludicrous). she needs to make her own mistakes. her A-levels are her making - you can't sist the exam for her, and so although i know you really want to support your daughter, you need to step back. let her experiance the world without her mother (sounds awful) and her family history. 19 year olds NEVER listen to their mother's!

just think post-uni she might have grown socially and repaired herself mentally and be with a loving boyfriend.

you can only let yourself be open for when she returns.

The thing is that I did step back. She left home (she has her own splendid flat btw, shared with others) and that was that. We had had some very serious fights (so yes, did the screaming and the shouting etc). I got in a lodger. I needed the money for a start, and it also gave me something to do (he was a foreign language student) to ease the 'empty nest' feeling when your first leaves home. He was eccentric, and me and ds enjoyed his stay. Dd at this stage had started to go downhill and, it turned out, what jealous of the lodger (I was amazed, as she was acting like she never wanted to see me ever again). I let go and moved on, and it was a bit quick for her. Though I do think that if she hadn't been hit with this massive bereavement, I don't think for a minute things would have got like this. I think she would have moved out and generally got going with her life. I was happy with that, and was surprised when she resurfaced.
I agree completely with your interpretation of the queen/queen thing Sakura - maybe I didn't put it well enough? Although the queen 'steps aside' I don't think she is vanquished. I am still her mother (the queen LOL) whether she sees that or not. Maybe mothers/daughters forget the power struggle - how fierce it is, or can be - when the daughter asserts her queendom (lol, running out of words here). I fought it - hard - then realised 'hang on, I'm the queen. period' LOL.
I also think that my apologies are actually coming from a powerful place, not a passive place. I apologise for what I know I got wrong (and I did get some fundamental things wrong). There is no point saying what I got right (a lot) bcs she just can't hear/see that right now. I am absolutely certain that she will one day. I'd be flogging a dead horse to labour the point - and it would only come across as 'look what I did for you!'. I am not fearful about this. I know she will get it one day. I know full well that I have laid very sound roots in my childrens' lives, and those will bear fruit. There is absolutely no question about that.
I can't talk to her about future plans, as she is morning till night nose to the grindstone revising. She's after the dazzling grades (she will get them) and is also very fragile. Tbh I'm thinking about MY future, bcs a huge part of me is hankering after the time when all this is over (the parenting). It didn't turn out the way I wanted at all (when I had them I was married, wealthy, with a good career) but I accept what happened - and I know there was some jolly good stuff in there. I am impatient really - I want to get on. I was horrified (if I am absolutely honest) that ex died when he did, bcs I knew that this tied me in to parenting for longer than I was expecting. They are both much more dependent than they would normally have been. They are grieving.

DO you think your daughter can sense that you are fed up with parenting, and that youd rather get on with things? ALso, although many people wouldnt mind their mothers renting out their room, many more sensitive people would. Have you seen Billy Elliot? THeres a running joke throughout that film about the father and brother saying that theyll be renting out his room as soon as hes gone to London. Its funny because he doesnt even have a room of his own AND because even if he had, they wouldnt be renting it out anyway. THe implication was that there would always be a bed for him at home if things in life didnt turn out as well as hed expected. I believe a teenager needs the security of knowing she can make steps into the world herself, but there will always be a bed for her at home if things dont work out.
Im not criticising you, because I know you have come on here to find out what the hell is going on in your family. Im just trying to get inside your daughter`s head, and trying to help you do the same. That way, you can know how to negotiate the next move, with minimum pain for both of you.

I do see what sakura is saying about not having a bolt hole at home any more. And then the death of her father happening. I guess it wasn't that surprising that she wanted to come home? (When I left home at the grand old age of 22, my mother did rent out my room to a friend of ours who needed an occasional stopping over place in Cambridge, but on the understanding he could only use it only when I was not visiting - even into mid twenties I'd have felt an irrational feeling of rejection if there had been no space for me at home).

Agree with you that while she is studying hard, it's no use discussing future plans with her. It has to wait and I suppose it's very possible she has also had thoughts on her future but doesn't want to talk about them while she is doing A levels.

Tigermoth, I dont think that feeling is irrational. We are all born with an innate fear of abandonment. That is why a baby goes beserk if its left alone. Its always in us but our logical side takes over, and as we become independant, we can overcome this fear because were not a helpless baby anymore.
But sometimes, events in life can trigger this fear again. I would say your mum renting out your room is one trigger. Then of course a parent dying is a big trigger.

a teenager talking in detail about killing themselves sounds mentally ill to me. However talk of queens and princesses and renting rooms to lodgers also sounds pretty bad.

We haven't heard what your daughter says, we can't understand the real issues here. But no-one should put up with abuse. You say to your child I'm not a perfect parent, I've made mistakes (and you need to mean that and be seen to mean it), but none of us is perfect. It doesn't mean I have to take abuse like this and I won't. There is always a place in my home for you, because I'd give you my bed if necessary, but you live by my rules in my home.

I try not to impose my life on my children. They are growing up and I'm preparing them to live independently. Part of that means cutting them some slack to do things I disapprove of. So my rules for them are few and restricted to the important things -like not being cruel to me!

However hard your child is working you need to show some interest in her future. It's a way of saying I still want to be there for you, I still care for you, even though you need to make your own life now. I already talk to my children about when they leave home and what support we might give them then. Children want to move on but its also frightening for them, especially if they've had to return home before because they couldn't cope.

Might have been better if she'd gone straight to college, a gap year doesn't sound the best idea for her. I don't know uni timetables, I suppose its too late to apply now? It sounds like she needs more structure in her life so if she's been talent spotted lining a job up might make her feel better.

Yes but suicidal thoughts are not necessarily a sign of mental illness, as in a personality disorder. They could be a sign of despair and of not having the coping skills to see any way out. This is basically "depression", (which could be seen as a mental illness).
Having suicidal thoughts and telling someone you want to commit suicide are two different things anyway. I dont doubt shes feeling suicidal, its just that there are other elements here, like attention seeking, or punishing her mother by articulating these thoughts.
I think this is a case of a "tiger in a cage". If a tiger in a cage is depressed, you dont imagine must be depressed because hes a tiger, you imagine he must be depressed because hes in a cage. I think its the same with a teenage girl. We just have to find out to what extent she feels caged in by her life. I could be totally wrong, and she may have a personality disorder, or something worse, but Im just hoping she hasnt. Going by what Ive read, it seems that she`s just under unbearable pressure. What with

1. her dad dying suddenly, and she was close to him
2. her A-levels approaching (she sounds conscientious),
3. a history of bad relations with her mother (who admits there has been flaws in her parenting),
4. nowhere to go to unwind where she feels at home.
5. Her late father`s family trying to get their hands on her money

Lets be honest here, anyone would crack under this pressure! If even one of those things happened to most people, they would be a mess!

I read your message earlier matilda -I didn't have anything useful to add to your POV. I felt I have said all I could say for the time being. I am a bit confused now as to why it's been deleted. Hope you are ok and have found this thread useful overall.

I was concerned about defamation tbh - I had mentioned a very powerful company in a derogatory way, which wasn't the best idea. Yes I have found this thread very helpful indeed tigermouth - it has helped me to have an outlet when the situation at home has been intolerable. The heartfelt support and encouragement has been a great help and I have been grateful for it - I am aware that my posts haven't been particularly consistent, but perhaps that is the nature of crisis: you swing about a bit from one extreme to the other. But I was concerned that a discussion ensued that talked about my personal life (if you like, that I had told in complete honesty), in a dispassionate way - a story picked over, the harrowing details (eg the implications of my daughter's suicide threats) discussed as a concept, which seemed to entirely miss that this is real life, and I am a real person (as is my daughter). I found that hurtful and unhelpful.

What I'm trying to say too, is that I am vulnerable right now - at the end of what I can endure. Please posters, bear that in mind.

While I'm here, your post Casbie is sticking in my mind and I have been meaning to ask you about it. HOw do you 'release the emotional ties and history that are binding and sufforcating you both'. Do tell!

Sorry matilda, I didn`t mean to hurt you.