Communication problem with 23yo son

[Nashelle]

Not sure if I'm posting this is right place or even if I can explain things properly. My 23yo son iscaway at uni and doing well. It's my husbands 60th birthday and we are with our 2 sons (the other is 19) in Spain. 23yo Sam is non communicative. Ask him a basic question and he can barely answer. It's as if he begrudges every word. I feel that I irritate him. When he decides to talk I'm expected to listen and when he decides topic is closed it's closed. If I say too much he will tell me to shut up. My nerves are on edge. I don't have a problem chatting to other people.
This is not a new problem but I've made things worse this time by confronting him when we were out, I asked him what right he had to be so rude to me? He blamed me for interupting him with stupid nonsense (I thought we were having a conversation). I got upset in the street. I couldnt stop the tears after that. What I've gathered from his messages to me after is that he's not my girlie best friend, that I should listen to him and not comment. I should do parent stuff like help him, feed him etc but not to try to chat to him. I feel rejected. I find it hard to be around someone with whom you have to monitor yourself. And I wonder if I overstepped a boundary with him. My husband is no support. Last night when we were alone he said this is his worst birthday and he might as well be dead. My 19yo has been a darling but I can't put a burden on him. I'd appreciate any response. Thank you.

Perhaps cutting communication and resetting the boundaries is what needs to happen for the relationship to move to a better stage.

Yes, Armchair I didn't think of that TBH.

Nashelle that's horrific, how awful. No wonder your DH doesn't want to confront the boys.

However you do say that he was sticking his head in the sand before his poor DS died so evidently not confronting situations is a "thing" for him.

Don't let your other sons hold you hostage over what happened to your DSS though. That's fucking unfair and immature of them.

I also agree that you don't need to cut skype and fb contact. I get that you want boundaries but the fact is hes 23 and you should be more of a friend than a parent at this point (presuming you've put in the parenting spadework first). Don't think about what a mother would do - think about how your friends would treat you and how you treat your friends - that's what you're aiming for.

Yes JolieMadame, I did think me ans DS1 were friends and I felt totally rejected when he said otherwise. Another poster said about her DD living at home and how they had nice chats and it sounded lovely. It may be different with boys, though I'm not expecting them to talk about typical woman stuff. He once said I should have had girls.
He's like my DH, words are mostly for coveying information. DH was an only child, DS1 prob would have been happy as only child. He used to bully his brother. Perhaps DS1 is not as nice a person as I think he is. I make a lot of allowances. Too many and that includes for freinds too. A friend I've had for about five years has cut communication because I refused to be her taxi service.

I'm not painting a pretty picture of myself here. When I look back I see a father who hit me (he apologised on the eve of my mothers death two years ago), I see a mother who was disinterested and snipey. Thet ran a shop and I worked for them without pay six and a half days per week. I asked for £25 (it was a long time ago) but they said no. I refused to keep working but then had to leave their house. They then employed two people and paid them. But I didnt learn, and a couple of years later my father asked me to do his shifts so he coukd work elsewhere and I did. I caught two buses and a train and got paid £4. I managed I get one pound more for travel. My parents at one point were worth a quarter or a million in the 1980s.
So I think we can say I've let most people walk over me. When I stand up for myself then these people dont like it. My parents refused to come to my wedding. They said I should have got married at 19 and it was twenty years too late and that I always did what I wanted to do. I've no idea who they wanted me to marry!

As for DS fixing my computer - he's getting a degree in comp science and won't look at my laptop if there's a problem. I hadn't realised how selfish this all really is.

Ever felt that you need a mental MOT coz that's how I feel right now!

Oh dear Nashelle. You really do need to work on your self esteem and assertiveness but I think you know that. That's a sad story you've told. I'm sure others will be along to suggest ways of doing this.

My DCs can be impatient when I muck up something on my laptop if they are busy with something else. But I give them "the look" (famous in our family - it can freeze water) and they knuckle down and help and in the end go over and above with sorting it out.

Your DS should be doing that too. It's mean not to help his Mum out when she needs help.

This isn't a pity-fest. But I probably needed to realise a pattern I've been creating. Feeling quite optimistic about not taking any more shit! And talking about this has helped very much.

how awful about DSS. I am also sad to hear that you had a difficult childhood - not surprised though as it explains a lot about why and how you have been conditioned to behave the way you do. Its great that you are feeling more positive about how you will change the way you do things and I really would get some solo counselling for yourself.

Gosh, how awful. No wonder you find yourself on this situation.
Maybe some time away from them all woukd be good coupled with the counselling. You are extremely insightful so counselling would be really effective for you.
You probably won't change your husband but a change in you might help the boys and certainly help you to have a better life.

Nashelle I can see how you got yourself into this situation, but now is the time to get yourself out. My first thought was you going away - maybe doing some volunteering abroad - for say 3-6 months. Give the men time to sort themselves out and give you time to find yourself. Your DS is an adult so I'm not sure you can change his behaviour but you can change how you allow it to effect you. Go spend some time with people who appreciate you.

You've had a hell of a lot to deal with Nashelle you really have.

Good luck putting your foot down.

Volunteering short term is a good idea and something that's crossed my mind on occasion. Only the other day I mentioned to my DS2 about working away before I get too old to do so. It would be very hard to leave them but it would be quite nice to do something for me. Anyone else sometimes feel you're life isn't your own? I joke with DH that I'm on a piece of elastic, I can only go so far before he rings me. I think it's time to have a think...

Meanwhile DS1 has gone back to uni, I know he was really upset about me shouting at him in the street (I didn't expect to get so inappropriately emotional) and I just hope he's okay. It's crossed my and DHs minds that he may have something like aspergers syndrome but surely I'd have noticed when he wad a child. He was a lovely chatty little boy. It's flippin adolescence that messes things up.
DS1 left and my step daughter and grandson aged 4 arrived to stay for a few days, which is so nice. It's great having another woman around!

Nashelle it sounds as if you have been through an awful lot. Have you ever had counselling?

I think in terms of your son just treat him like an adult. Tell him he is welcome to come back & live with you but there are conditions. I would petsonally say 'rent free while applying for jobs - which includes minimum wage jobs to tide over until he finds something more permanent, (& this is very generous), then minimal rent while working so he can save for a deposit. You will do usual cooking etc that you do, but if he wants to eat at a different time he can cook for himself. You don't expect to skivvy after him. You could offer to wash clothes while putting a load on but he is responsible for clean clothes etc himself.

He sounds an entitled brat. He may just be immature (my 14 year old lives in the mistaken belief that the world revolves around him) but he needs to grow up soon or real life is going to be a shock (or you will be saddled with his lazy arse for years).

Set those boundaries - calmly but firmly & do consider counselling.

'It's crossed my and DHs minds that he may have something like aspergers syndrome'

Really?
I hate that fucking default, both of mine are Aspies, as is OH. None of them are rude inconsiderate shits however.

You really, really should do something for yourself. They need to see that you are an independent adult whose life is not defined by them; it may make them respect you more but in any case it will make you happier and with a more positive life. Sounds like you'd have to wait a long time to get any positivity out of that lot, so do it for yourself, show them your self worth does not depend on them.

I have a son and a daughter with autism,ds is 21 and dd 13 and neither of them would behave like your son either. I'm another one who really hates the assumption that any child or adult (as your son is) showing any sort of difficult behaviour can't be because they are ill mannered, rude and disrespectful and been brought up without boundaries it has to be ASD
Hate the flipping stereotypes,ds would never speak to me like your son has to you ,he's a gentle, loving, kind and polite young man and I know plenty more on the spectrum who are the same tbh.

I'm so sorry if I've offended anyone by mentioning Aspergers. I actually don't like labels and the fact that both Armchair and Insanity have posted in response to this makes me realise that the only label I can put on my son it that of 'rude inconsiderate brat'.

I should say that it wasnt the rudeness that made us think of Aspergers it was his social awkwardness and lacking communication. We were clutching at straws. Straws we know very little about. The bottom line: you cant excuse rudeness and as parents we are to blame for being to flippin soft!

I think you have let so much appalling behaviour pass without comment that it will be very difficult to change anything substantial overnight. Start, maybe, with one little positive thing.

I don't think you will ever refuse DS1 leave to come back and live with you so, when he does, offer to make him a sandwich/whatever you are cooking for everyone else and, if he refuses, don't make him an alternative meal later. Make it a house rule that DS1 and DS2 cook dinner for you all once a week. If DS1 doesn't join in, he doesn't get anything. Don't do his laundry. That sort of thing. Treat him like the adult he is.

Good Luck!

Thanks. I don't know about any other posters but you start out doing your best and thinking all's okay and then it comes back to bite you in the bum!

Yes of course Nashelle we all start off with the best intentions then it all rolls on until you think... hang on a minute, why are you talking to me like this when all I want is the best for you.

Agree with Leeds. Small steps but stand firm on those steps

My first thought was that he might have aspergers actually. I think I have aspergers, my DS has a diagnosis and I'm certain that DH and his DM have it. DH and DS are very uncommunicative. DH in particular - he would rather eat dinner in silence and does things like not reply to texts as he doesn't see the need. Sometimes he doesn't reply to speech directed at him then gets grumpy if I ask if he heard. He is difficult to live with. He never asks anyone if they've had a good day. He does things like take his plate with a meal on it through to the table while we are coming through with ours and one glass - just for himself. He would never think to pass veg, water jug round etc unless prompted. He would sit in silence in company if the other people aren't his oldest friends or immediate family and will close off conversation, eg ' 'Do you follow the football?'' ''No". He doesn't say hello when I get in. But he doesn't have many other noticeable traits - a bit inflexible in his tastes and interests admittedly, very able at maths, IT and science. When we go for family outings to the coast he spends the whole time videoing the landscape and us - he's there but he's not with us. Later at home he'll spend hours editing the videos (with lovely results).

DS (17) is more sociable but likes a lot of space and clearly has to make an effort to not be grumpy if pressed about eg school. He takes ages to learn the names of teachers etc. I can't imagine him asking me if I'd had a good day. His days are usually "fine". Academically able fortunately.

He's not out and out rude though. Unlike his dad he says please and thank you and enjoys a family game of poker, watching films together etc.

I think there's a balance. I work very hard to try to make DS nice - making him talk to relations on the phone, reminding him about friends birthdays, instructing him to' like' birthday wishes on facebook etc. But with other things I've given up eg I eat slowly and try to engage him and DH in dinnertime conversation. Although they know I hate it, they still scoff their meals quickly then get up and leave me sitting at the table

I don't know if they are like your DS but it struck me that they might be.

Actually, Rogueantimatter, your first DS sounds almost exactly like mine. My DS is very knowledable - we don't know how much he knows - but doesn't seem to have a lot of empathy. The barely said one word answers are a right pain. One thing about my DS is he's brave. He moved about 500 miles away to go to uni. He days when he's with his uni friends he acts like a a 'normal' person. If this is so I don't know why he can't do it at home. I think he lacks confidence in himself but that's no excuse for being antisocial. Have you tried or thought about getting a diagnosis?

There are thousands of men-children out there, raised in families that have never set clear boundaries, always facilitated their demands and wishes and never expected anything more of them than that they exist and need their parents.
Parents who are scared of not being loved by their children, even if that love is conditional on being allowed to do and say whatever they like.
Children who have not moved much beyond toddler egocentricity, but who can switch their behaviour and manners on and off, depending on the audience.
Do all those thousands have ASD? Or are they the product of their environments?