I'm terrified for dd (13) who is becoming a bully's sidekick

[Notmyidea]

Dd always used to be a bright, lovely girl. She is currently excluded from school (part of today and tomorrow, allowed back after half term) for helping to beat up a girl in her year with special needs. I am beyond ashamed. There is a ringleader, and I think there is a bit of "if I don't join in she'll turn on me" going on.
Naturally that is no excuse.

I have let her know how upset and angry we are, and added our own punishment to schools.

Anyone dealt with this? How to I help her remove herself from other bully's influence?

Fighting in the street, internet abuse - what do you expect school to do about this? Police or parents, surely?

As for a isolation room - I'd love one, and I'd love to be able to staff it. Not a hope - there is no money.

I don't understand why one should be unduly worried about the well being of the excluded one when one is dealing with the overall well being of a school community. Why should the one be allowed to terrify tens of others and when that is donw why should the needs of the one trump the needs of the rest of a class or a set whose education is being diluted and who might be scared to go to school because they know something, yet again, will kick off.

I'm sorry but I don't see it. When I was at school these people were expelled. That set an example for those on the edge and meant they didn't take that step too far. Surely that's better than allowing everyone else to suffer. Three chances and you're out; what's wrong with that? Why the excuses? How can an SLT allow one child to beat up another and then lay into a well behaved, hard working child for rolling up a skirt. How does that make children respect SLTs? How does that assist good home school relationships?

Back to the thread; and I would suggest that the OP's child has engaged in viciousness because the OP has facilitated excuses for her child's behaviour. My child once went to a school where this sort of behaviour was common place and excused by the Head Teacher. That didn't make my child think it was right to join in vendettas against children with special needs; it made my child want to work with them and upset my child deeply. I think my children also know that if they had every behaved in this way towards a vulnerabe person that their parents would have come down like a ton of bricks - but they knew that as tinies, years before they became teenagers.

Oh she listened alright, who doesn't on MN, even if we pretend not to? She just didn't want to face the reality of it actually being all about a beaten disabled girl at the hands of her dd and co and not her "poor influenced dd". Far too unpalatable it seems.

Luckily for her and her dd, no one seems to want to stand up to her in RL either, with the girl with ASD and her mother obviously wishing to get over it ASAP to ease things for themselves and try to carry on as normal.

Because what people with little experience of ASD don't realise is even a semi functioning school environment is often the best we can hope for and we often have to swallow a lot of bitter pills to preserve it.

OP wasn't attacked, she was told home truths and unfortunately when it comes to disability no one takes it quite as seriously as other kinds of prejudice. What I would like to know is what posters would be saying if OP's lovely dd and her mates had snatched and hidden down a radiator a religious item, eg headscarf or Yarmulke? Or someone was beaten for being annoying because they were black and talking about black culture. Yes, I would be really interested to see if there was any bleating about bullying the OP then.

Fighting in the street in uniform - exclusion for bringing the reputation of the school into disrepute. We had detention for eating in the street! Internet abuse - doesn't that cross the line of an internet bullying policy that many schools now have. When Greycoat pupils bullied teachers on the internet they received fixed term exclusions. So a pupil can abuse a fellow pupil over the internet but not a member of staff. Doesn't sit quite right with me - again - why are attacks against staff dealt with but not attacks against pupils. Very odd this selective discipline.

Come on, when it's that selective, please explain to me why parents and children should respect their teachers. What happened to fairness? What happened to consistency? What happened to cognizance of right and wrong? Well, come one, let's have some explanations.

I don't know the Greycoats case. I do know that we cannot exclude for events outside of school. Internet abuse - if it happens in school, on school machines, we will deal with it. If it happens out of school, we will intervene but always advise parents to go to the police.

I have taught a number of pupils who were in danger of permanent exclusion in lower school - not for violence to pupils or staff, which is rare, but for defiance, disruption, verbal abuse to staff. Many of them turned it around - but they needed more than three chances!

OP - I think you are dealing with things well. Talk to the school and see what support they suggest.

At what expense to some of their classmates? Do you think it's acceptable for the educational experience of the majority to be impacted by the minority? Parents are told at admissions about high standards, etc. Don't you think it would be advisable if head, especially of sought after schools, actually said "although this school has a reputation second to none and although I am telling you we have exceptionally high standards of behaviour if a child joins and intimidates and disrupts all the others and if I think that child needs ten chances at the expense of your children then I will allow that child to disaffect everyone else." Not very honest is it. But perhaps the the definition of high standards for head teachers includes: abuse, violence, theft, drugs, foul language, etc.

Please don't tell me it's OK to tell prospective parents all those things are fine if it means one dysfunctional individual is going to be allowed to do precisely as they please at the expense of everyone else.

Come on, when it's that selective, please explain to me why parents and children should respect their teachers. What happened to fairness? What happened to consistency? What happened to cognizance of right and wrong? Well, come one, let's have some explanations.

And the explanation is? Well come on, it's OK for others to suffer so what about the explanation about how that is fair then?

So a pupil can abuse a fellow pupil over the internet

Not at my school they can't. My school has suspended kids for doing exactly that.

The parents complained because they didn't think it was within the school's jurisdiction. So either way you get complaints.

Also, people being 'worried about the wellbeing of the excluded pupil' are just aware that outcomes are not good for these children- they are 4 times more likely to end up in prison. Simply chucking them out of school as children doesn't solve their problems, these children don't disappear from society. They end up more likely to break the law as adults, so you are just potentially creating more victims.

Are they not four times as likely to end up in prison in any event due to their behaviour and lack of respect for authority and isn't it better to stop them spoiling the lives of others sooner rather than later. Is this not an argument about the structure of Pru's and support which I agree requires reorganisation rather than an argument about why those who are disruptive and violent should be left in mainstream school to dilute the achievement of those who want to learn. What too of the impact of those who function on "the edge" and who would be better off without the influence of those who are entirely dysfunctional.

Not necessarily, windy, it's certainly plausible that taking them out of the school environment and causing them to spend more time with their family or in their community increases the opportunity to become offenders and gives them access to those with less salubrious lifestyles. LA's have a duty to provide alternative education, but not full time.

Certainly if it was known that excluding a pupil was sending them to a specialist school for an effective intervention programme, then this might be acceptable, however as you say, that is currently not the case and thus expulsion is just sending the bad behaviour elsewhere, and potentially making it worse.

I've not read the whole thread but I think this is a good time to help your daughter make a massive change in her life. It means you will have to insist on complete separation from the other bully. Do take up the opportunity to meet with the victim. Use it as a learning process. Teach your daughter about the disability rights movement, how not too long these children were forcibly taken away from their parents to be locked up in institutions. Help her to understand why she has ended up doing such a horrendous thing.

My heart goes out to you OP.

But why should the 27-29 left in the class have to suffer them and the impact they have on their achievement? Certainly how schools have the cheek to request donation after donation when they don't deal with behaviour is beyond me. Just so glad we were able to move our daughter out of this sort of environment. I think its impact on her would have been significant. She's doing GCSE's this year and is forecast A/A*. I'm quite certain that would have been mostly B/C had we left her where she was; indeed the school's results have declined in recent years and the decline is due to falling expectations and standards.

If you were mugged on the streets by a teenager at lunchtime, you'd be saying 'why were they not in school?'

"Certainly how schools have the cheek to request donation after donation when they don't deal with behaviour is beyond me."

It des sound as if you have a particular axe to grind! But no, of course the rest of the class shouldn't suffer because of a disruptive kid- most schools have internal exclusion or something like that. It is perfectly possible to manage difficult pupils in school- if a particular school isn't doing it then they are doing it wrong- it's not the system that's wrong necessarily.

I have just sat no read these posts and am really surprised by what a hard time the OP is getting. I don't see what's wrong with being 'terrified' for her dd who until recently didn't show any of this bullying behaviour. Of course it's possible to be influenced by others and the OP is worried about the negative influence of the new girl. Also, I don't see that she is justifying her daughters actions by saying that the girl was being annoying as she herself don't say this, she is just explaining what her daughter and the other girls said, it doesn't mean she agrees with this but she should be allowed to give the facts without being shot down for it.
She has spoken to the other mum and her daughter has apologised and started to make plans to have further discussions but she is being told by people here that she thinks a quick apology means it's all sorted. I don't think she's saying that at all and if there was no apology she would be getting told that he daughter should apologise so she can't win.
I think she has handled the situation well and is trying to do everything she can to get her daughter to accept more responsibility. I also think she agrees that what her daughter did was disgusting but she is certainly not to blame and not justifying her actions, simply describing what facts she knows.

The OP dd hardly sounds as if she's heading for a PRU.

OP - how communicative if your dd with you? Ds2 is in year 7 at the moment & still fairly talkative. He has asked me about this sort of situation (how to respond when people are doing something he sees as wrong - eg homophobic comments, taking the piss out of someone with autism) - we talked about the difficulty of standing up for someone without becoming a target yourself (& it is hard - many adults are quite incapable of speaking out when they see someone being treated badly). We talked a bit about deflection, using humour & I gave him some suggested scripted lines (some of which were lame apparently).

One of his best friends has an ASD and he does go too far sometimes, piss other people off & end up in a bit of a mess. I have pointed out to ds2 that as his friend he should really try & tell him to lay off when it's heading towards going pear shaped. I have reminded him he will be able to read the situation better than his friend. Ds2 has a severely autistic brother so he 'gets' autism albeit his friend is very different from his brother.

Anyway bit of a ramble but I have found that encouraging talking about this sort of situation to be very helpful as it has meant I can give him suggestions. Ds2 doesn't find it easy to stand up to the herd (ds3 has no problem, first sign of an injustice he's in there hands on hips - but I think he's unusual). For ds2 talking about ways to be supportive of someone being picked on has been helpful. Ds2 was bullied at primary for a long time which means he wants to intervene to stop it happening to others but is also terrified about being bullied himself again. For him having ways he can deflect with humour has been a good approach as it is something he feels comfortable doing (so for example if he sees someone being picked on/called names etc or has the same directed at him he'll say something like 'well at least I haven't got the IQ of a ham sandwich' & everyone laughs (& often the bully then gets turned on). This is a very deliberate approach/strategy & we run through funny potential put downs every now & then. He doesn't have the strength to do a ds3 style hands on hips 'enough' yet - but he can show his non-alignment with the bully, & support for the victim using humour. He is much more confident now he had the humours it approach up his sleeve as well.

So whoever said running through with your dd what she could have done differently & giving her strategies for future situations is a good suggestion IMO.

OP, have you given your DD a “proper” row? I learnt from a fine example of how to do it in “Educating Essex” when one of the TAs at the school dealt with her DD for phone bullying. When her DD blamed her sister for some of it, the TA didn’t let her off at all – instead she called both girls in and gave them both hell. And she made it clear that they had shamed her – that she was a TA at the school and people judge the parents when their children bully. You can do similar “I’ve known Mrs Jones for X years, how do you think I can look her in the face now? What must she think of me? And you? Yes she was very gracious about it on the phone but that doesn’t make what you did all right.” Your DD needs to be firmly in disgrace at home first , then you give her the ways to make things better, apologies, consequences etc., and you can all move on.

It’s important to get your DD’s side of the story but don’t water it down. There’s a difference between “I didn’t kick him, I was on the other side of the room” and “I didn’t kick him, I was waving my foot around and it happened to hit him”. You could say “that is a kick” or you could just treat the watered-down version the same as the full version. You can also channel Judge Judy “if it doesn’t make sense it isn’t true”. I am assuming that the earlier version is what the school told you? For this new version about pulling the girl away from the bag, which either waters down or flatly contradicts the earlier story, you can tell her “You had no business pulling her, how did you think it would end?” or ask “Is that what you told the Head of Year?” (or whoever talked to her after the incident) Either she didn’t say it because it wasn’t true, or she did say it and the HoY didn’t see that as any excuse, so you don’t either.

If your DD says she was scared of her friend etc, then take that in but don’t let it derail you. Tell her “OK, I hear you are having problems with BullyGirl. We will talk about that later on and we will find ways to deal with it. But right now we have to deal with what you did to Victim”. Try to get across that it was her decisions and her behaviour that got her excluded. Even if BullyGirl was the teen equivalent of Genghis Khan that doesn’t let your DD off from physically attacking another girl. Having to accept full responsibility for her own behaviour may be the first step to your DD rethinking her relationship with BullyGirl.

YY to DianeTheDiabolist about the need to apologise unreservedly. It’s good for the victim and it’s good for your DD too. Apology is a first step towards empathy. We teach little kids to say thank you for things they don’t want because it shows respect for the giver’s feelings and because that’s the first step to learning to appreciate other people’s generosity. Apology is the same. I expect your DD will already be feeling very sorry for what she did, but even if she isn’t, insisting on an unreserved apology will make it clear that she should. A phone apology is not enough. OP, could your DD make a personal visit with apology, note and chocs/flowers bought with her own money before she goes to her GPs?

One thing to be cautious about in terms of asking the school to do restorative justice etc, in an ideal world they will have some of this in place but also be careful that it doesn’t come across as you expecting them to do your discipline for you. Your DD needs you to do your side too.

Best of luck!

I haven't read the whole thread... so I'm sorry if it's been asked, but have you asked your DD why she didn't just help her classmate find the comfort object she was looking for? Why did she not understand how important it was?

It sounds like she needs a crash course in empathy, perhaps being able to understand what other people have to deal with might help her resolve not to join in with threatening and upsetting behaviours in the future. So if it were me, I'd be working out how I could instill some of that in her over the holiday. I'm pretty sure that it's only by her understanding that that she will start to take responsibility for her own behaviour.

By the way, my DS has ASD, he has difficulty with empathy and we've had to teach him carefully about thinking about how what he does makes other people feel. even so, it's not been rocket science.

I'm not trying to join the pile on notmyidea because I don't think it will help you or your DD, but there is no point in wringing your hands about it either and I can see where people are coming from when they say you are the person who needs to see how serious this is. If you don't see it is serious how do you expect your DD to take it on board?

Have I given dd a proper row? I remember the Educating Essex piece you are refering to. I would say twice as loud and nowhere near as controlled, but no, I've not accepted any of dd's excuses at any point. The result being she went to bed Thursday night in defensive high dudgeon and not ready to admit anything but in no doubt as to how we felt about it. Which led to me posting in the small hours of Friday morning while trying to work out what to do.

She has since had time to calm down and reflect, talk to me a bit more and make an apology I believe was sincere. That does not make anything remotely okay, and I've not revised any of the restrictions on her in light of it, but we have to start somewhere.

Notmy I think that sending her to GPs over half term is a good idea, I understand why you are doing it, it will keep her away from the other bullies.
Also, I would confiscate her phone etc for the duration.

I realise this is extreme but have you considered an alternative school for your daughter?
I would be concerned that the trouble she is in could escalate further.

Then good for you notmyidea. I think you're doing a great job with this painful situation, tough in the short term and also thinking out how to help your DD deal with things in the long term too.

I do like the idea of going back over the situation and asking her at each point of what happened what she could have done differently; and if she can't work it out for herself, educating her.

I agree that if the other bully doesn't leave you should change school.