In despair - can't go on

[minifingers]

:-(

Many posts on this board about dd.

She went to stay with my mum and sister for 6 weeks at the start of the academic year after some violent outbursts which ended in us getting the police involved.

Things had been a bit better since she got back, but the last few weeks she has started to become more and more difficult with me again, and started getting into trouble again at school.

The long and short of it is that she is verbally abusive to me pretty much every day at the moment and it's destroying me emotionally to the point where I'm starting to feel ill and unable to function as a parent to my other 2 younger dc's.

This morning she asked me to buy her a McDonalds for breakfast. I said no - there was bacon and eggs, bread, yogurt, porridge, flour for pancakes. I told her to make her own breakfast. This precipitated an hour of verbal abuse - I am tight fisted, poor, pathetic, a loser, friendless, lazy, my work is worthless, nobody likes me, I'm useless to everyone.

I try to detach and ignore, but she will follow me around insulting me.

She bullies me and shouts me down, refuses to comply with any requests, constantly reminds me that she can do what she likes when she like, and there is NOTHING dh and I can do about it. She often tells me to 'shut up', makes obscene comments (in the car on Wednesday she spent 10 minutes telling me how she had sucked 5 men's cocks and fucked 15 boys one after another - all rubbish but just said to disgust and distress me. I am pretty sure she is not having sex with 1 boy, let alone dozens), shoves past me in the hallway of the house.

She shouts at me and abuses me if her uniform isn't ready in the morning (if I haven't remembered to hang it out to dry after it has been through the washer), tells me my cooking is disgusting and that the house is disgusting because I'm lazy and useless. She berates me for not having a full-time job or much money, laughs at me, tries to play DH off against me. Says he could do much better than me and that I should just leave.

The abuse is pretty frequent and almost always starts in response to me saying 'no' to her - no you can't have a sleepover on a school night, no you can't have money for the kebab shop, or if I ask her to do something she doesn't feel like doing eg get up in the morning, do some homework, whatever.

She is aggressive, nasty and disrespectful to some of her teachers at school as well, and is currently facing a possible permanent exclusion for disrespectful and disruptive behaviour.

She has a rationale for it all: apparently I am abusive to her because I let her sleep on a new mattress on the floor for several months (was trying to sort all the children's beds out - new bunk beds for the little ones, and she didn't like her old bed frame as it is old fashioned, so I dismantled it ready for storage). She also until recently had no door on her bedroom - it had come of its hinges after she tried to slam it in DH's face a few months ago and he pushed it. Her room is at the end of a long hallway with no other rooms going off it so she still had some privacy. Plus her window is cracked after his cousin kicked a ball into it - not so that there are holes in it, but the glass is crazed in one of the 4 squares. Also took her curtains down to wash and haven't put them back up (no privacy issues, her room overlooks a private garden) and sometimes condensation goes a bit mouldy on her window frame. None of these things are great but the rest of the upstairs of the house is worse. It's a biggish Edwardian terrace and quite scruffy - there is so much to do that we feel overwhelmed by it. Never the less - her room is decent by the standards of the other bedrooms. We put new laminate flooring in about 2 years ago, all the (sadly single glazed) windows were refurbished 3 years ago

[FiscalCliffRocksThisTown]

Think beast's idea sounds sensible.

Stay strong for your other children

[flow4]

Oh mini, I'm sorry you're back at this point. :(

People who haven't experienced this with a teenager generally do not realise that there is next-to-no help available. If your teen is self-harming, has an eating disorder or suicidal, you will get help from CAMHS - but not otherwise. If your teen is violent, you will get limited help from the police and criminal justice system. That is it. Schools, GPs etc are only able to help with 'smaller' problems. Social services will only get involved if there is a serious safeguarding concern - i.e. if they judge that you are not able to keep your child safe, not the other way round. A foster placement is unlikely to be an option.

One of the reasons parents feel unwilling to ask for help is that they know they are so desperate, and they suspect that if they asked and were turned down, it would break them. I kept asking, and sought help from school, GP, CAMHS, a VCS counselling service, a drug counselling service, youth services, ed psych, ed welfare, social services, police, YOT - that's 11 agencies - and every single one said we didn't qualify or they couldn't help.

So people reading this thread need to bear in mind that mini (a) has tried pretty much everything and (b) is probably on her own with this.

mini, I think it really boils down to whether you really have reached your limit. In reality, you only have two options: throw her out or hang on in there. Only you can know if/when you get to the point where you really, really can't stand any more. IME, the 'bottom line' is always lower than you think it is, and parents of teenagers always tolerate very much more than they ever think is possible - but you do have a limit.

If you are not quite at your limit yet and you can 'hang on in there', then you must try to follow Mary's advice: set a very few 'key survival rules', detach, and look after yourself. Take your attention, as much as possible, away from your daughter's awful behaviour. Spend what emotional energy you have on doing positive, nurturing, nice things - big or small. Give as little energy as possible to all the shit. I know it's easier said than done, but it will help. If you are close to breaking point but still 'hanging on in there', this is the only thing that will help.

If you can't hang on in there any more - and I certainly wouldn't blame you - then you are going to have to actively throw your daughter out. SS will not willingly offer to take her into care or arrange a foster placement, because you are not harming her. You will have to refuse point-blank to have her, and resist all SS's pressure to make you keep her. The GP will be their next step, so be prepared for that too. (It costs over £500/week for the state to care for a child, they will not do it if there are any other options). If there are any ways in which your DD is at risk, tell them. In fact, emphasise this. For instance, if your DD stays out overnight or runs away (NB. this will be a significant safeguarding issue at 14, but might not be considered one at 15). If there are ways in which your DD compromises the safety of your younger DCs, tell them that too.

It will be horrible. It will be difficult for you and more difficult for your DD. That is the terrible dilemma parents find themselves in: you have to weigh up impossible choices: your DD's wellbeing against the wellbeing of the rest of your family.

Mary talked about this above - she has 'hung on in there' because she judged that the harm that would come to her DS1 if she threw him out is greater than the harm he is doing to the rest of the family by staying. I made the same judgement for a couple of years.

But in my case, I then reached the point where I judged the balance had tipped - my DS grew older, he was involved in more scary stuff, I grew more desperate, etc. - and I drew lines and made changes, and so did my DS. We are now 15 months on from that - a couple of years past the worst times - and things are going well, so there is hope, mini. But only you can guess whether that hope is enough, or whether you can in fact create more hope by forcing some changes now.

Good luck, whatever you do.

[BookWorm37]

Hi Mini,

I echo the other posters in that I think this is an awful situation for you and your family, my heart goes out to you.

I just wanted to put a few thoughts to you. I feel your daughter has an extreme amount of anger about something that you possibly don't know about yet. If you take her room as a reflection of herself; there is no door, she perhaps feels anyone can come into her room at any time. With no curtains at the window, she feels exposed, as though everyone can see her. Maybe she can't fix these things herself because she needs you to fix them, in her eyes- to protect her.
I feel something might have happened to her and she perceives (maybe not consciously) the room as herself with you not protecting her.

The reason I say this is because I sense similarities in her interactions with you to how I have felt at times in my life. I have issues about doors and windows and feeling exposed. Through therapy I have realised how they represent others things. I feel the room issue ought not to be overlooked.

I know this won't really help the day to day confrontations but if she allows you to sit and talk to her at some point, you might be able to get her to open up about things if you feel it would still help.

[goinggreyagain]

Mini, I haven't read any of your other posts but I know the pain of watching your child in so much pain and the chaos it creates in the family.
Has your DD ever had complete blood work and urinalysis done ? Before anything else I would rule out anything organic and or drug use. Is there a pattern to her outbursts ? (it helps to start keeping a diary) How was she when she was at your Mums for a length of time ?
One thing to keep in mind is that underneath all of the anger is a scared little girl. She sounds like she feels completely out of control of her emotions and outbursts and as awful for you as this is it is just as bad for her, she is probably filled with such a sense of self loathing. Perhaps when she is having a good moment tell her you are scared for her and its terrifying to watch her self destruct. Try to put the emphasis on what is happening with her not the damage she is doing to you and the rest of the family. I guarantee you she has a lot of shame as to how you treats you.

[bamboostalks]

It sounds as if all her self hatred is directed towards you. Possibly connected to the fact that she is black and you are white, you are slim and she is fat etc. I would seriously suggest that you refer her to a private psychiatrist at The Tavistock Centre in London. Remortgage if you need to.

[DaveBussell]

She has plenty of reasons to be angry but she has got to find another outlet for this anger and stop targeting you op.

I agree with bamboo - the best hope of an improvement in your family life is to find a therapist she can really connect with. Don't give up on this idea because you've had some negative experiences. If this was my child I would want feel I had done everything I could.

[strugglinginsilence]

Have you investigated whether she suffers from severe PMS?

I only say that because we had a pupil until last year whose behaviour was very similar. It was only after two years that a different GP suggested this and she saw a consultant. She was given hormone treatment and (I think) Prozak. The difference in a few months was incredible in school and I gather at home. She left last year with decent GCSE's and a much happier family.

[sporktacular]

OK I work with teens and young adults, so can say a few things for sure in reply to some of your comments:

"I am going to see my gp this week and see if she can refer us to social services."

You don't need to, you can just call them yourself. There will be an emergency out of hours number which you'll find on your local council's website, so you could call them right now. They won't do anything until morning other than talk to you unless anyone is at risk of immediate physical harm, but they will talk to you, and sort out what will be the next step in getting your family some help.

You could write down a summary of what's been happening before you call, to help you explain it clearly when you speak to them. You could also write down any questions you might have about how they would handle things, so you will know more about what to expect from their involvement. You could even then talk about all of those things BEFORE deciding to tell them who you are, if that would help you feel more in control.

"I suspect social services won't help us as there is no criminal behaviour..."

They will. Criminal behaviour is the criteria for police involvement, not social services involvement. Social services deal with situations like yours.

"...and the only one at risk of harm is me. :-("

Why do you think that risk of harm to yourself doesn't count or isn't important? It is, and you are being harmed already.

You are experiencing abuse, and this is making it difficult for you to really take into account your own safety or to calmly work out what to do. It's a really, really horrible situation and ANYONE would be struggling with it. You need help, you deserve help. Call social services.

I've taken hundreds of calls from desperate parents who are living with a teenager who is behaving something like this. I feel nothing but sympathy and concern for both the parents and the teenagers involved, and can suggest loads of sources of help and support, although unfortunately only really in my local area so I probably can't do this for you right now.

But there will be a duty social worker sitting next to a phone right now just waiting for it to ring so they can do this for you. Please call them.

Hugs and more hugs!

[minifingers]

Hi all
Thought I'd revisit the thread and thank everyone again for their kindness and their advice. And give an update! Thanks spork for your input! that's good to know.

I have stepped back from the edge. After a long talk with DH I came to the conclusion that I have to find a way to live with DD at home, and that I will have to accept that I have no control over her at all. I am up and down with this. On Friday things were going so well, and we were sitting together on the sofa, where she'd been eating her dinner. I asked her politely if she could take her finished plate out to the kitchen and she said 'later'. I said, 'no please, now' (it contained a big stinking pile of lamb bones) and it started to go the way of old - dd simply refusing point blank to do what I'd asked, even though it was such a small thing. I could feel the anger and exasperation rising up in me. How is it that we can expect everyone in the house to follow certain really basic rules (such as out your plate in the kitchen when you've finished eating) and yet have to exempt dd because she WON'T follow them.

And she won't. She does whatever she likes and we just have to accept it. I feel gutted that the younger ones are watching her breaking all the rules and defying me and getting away with it. Always.

But this is how she is, so it's either keep her here and let her walk all over everyone, or go through an almighty trauma to remove her. And because she is mostly quite nice IF SHE'S NOT THWARTED IN ANY WAY, we try to live with the way she is.

It's easier for DH. She is more respectful to him. She gets more off him in terms of money and treats and she knows which side her bread is buttered. For me it's emotionally painful, but if she refrains from verbal abuse or physical intimidation I can probably find a way of living with it. I know I have to.

But I feel sad because I resent her - her selfishness and bullying and dominance of the house. Her fundamental disrespect and disregard for me. I show her affection but in my head I have a little calendar that is counting down the days, weeks and months and years until she leaves. I feel gutted about my life as her mother..

[Palika]

Minifingers, you do not have to let her walk all over you - you DO have power. If you continue to let her treat you badly you may get sick. Be careful!

[minifingers]

I have no power to make her do anything she doesn't want to do.

She knows this.

DH knows it.

I know it.

That is the way things are here. Punishment doesn't work. We're exhausted with punishing and withholding and threatening, and it really doesn't work.

I just have to try to preserve some sort of dignity and learn to walk away. I'm getting my bedroom decorated soon and I'm going to have a really good lock put on the door, so that I have a refuge where my wishes are respected and my space is my own.

She is 14 and a bit. She won't be here forever.

[Moxiegirl]

Did she behave at your mum's?
I don't have any answers, my eldest dd is now in care but ss only got involved as dd was very much at risk due to her extreme behaviour and had also been sectioned. So slightly different circumstances but I know how you feel- you can never relax
To those suggesting you 'put her in foster care' I give a hollow laugh, this is very unlikely and difficult and if you throw her out and you have a willing family member they will expect that to happen.
I would try young minds though, and maybe some counselling for you, as you can't change her but you need to make sure you aren't worn into the ground with it all. Take care

[RandomMess]

Hindsight is so easy, but perhaps you shouldn't have mentioned the plate because it was inviting confrontation?

Big hugs, I really hope I don't have to walk in your shoes - I've got my eldest at the end of her teens but another 3 yet to go through them!

[Ledkr]

Oh dear, I thought you'd had a breakthrough.
What would have happened if you said
"Well I'd like you to put your plate in the kitchen and if it's not done by 6.30 I will...turn off the Internet, phone contract or whatever hurts.
I remember feeling the same about my ds1.
I still find him difficult to be around and he's an adult

[beatricequimby]

Minifingers, I have read your previous threads and I think you are doing your best in a very difficult situation and Maryz's advice sounds very good. You really shouldn't feel guilty about not earning more money, working more hours is not what you or your younger children need right now.

Would you be prepared to try family therapy again? I know your previous experience was awful but there must be good therapists available. I also wondered what your Mum and sister think?

[Ledkr]

I wondered that maryz, just don't set yourself up to fail.
Probably the only way for now.

[DaveBussell]

Op has had a breakthrough. She has decided to detach - something that many people have advised her to do over many threads and I'm sure it will be really beneficial to her feelings of stress and resentment.

She has also had a proper practical look at the situation and thought about what's wrong with it and what's right. "because she is mostly quite nice IF SHE'S NOT THWARTED IN ANY WAY" That's quite a change from the usual description of dd - something positive despite a big proviso.

[Ledkr]

maryz I totally get it, I was barging into crack houses at 6 months pg with dd and nothing worked.
It's just that I do all kinds of training now In my job so just try to draw on that.
I often see families like mine/yours/the ops and think to myself " I've no idea why I'm being paid to help them when I couldn't sort my own child out."
With hindsight I'd have definitely taken the pressure off dd and ultimately myself.

[Ledkr]

I honestly don't mean to patronise.

[tethersend]

Hi mini- I've posted on your threads before about your DD's education.

One thing- has she been assessed by an Educational Psychologist? I think she may meet the threshold for a statement for ESBD. I also think you should look at the symptoms of Oppositional Defiance Disorder (ODD)- symptoms here.

[minifingers]

Ledkr - we have tried removing phone/turning off internet/taking gadgets. It makes NO difference except she feels hard done by and even more justified in her behaviour.

She believes that she is on a completely equal footing to me in relation to decisions and rules and status in the house and is continually flabbergasted at me having the cheek to comment on inconsiderate, rude or selfish behaviour.

At the same time as believing that she has the right to total autonomy in the house with absolute disregard towards family rules and expectations, she also sees it as my DUTY to do her laundry, cook for her (but only what she feels like eating), pick her up from friends houses when she can't be arsed to take the bus, get her uniform ready etc. She won't help around the house but she's very rude and nasty about how disorganised and messy it is. She is astonishingly entitled.

Maryz, I do wonder if your ds's and my dd's targeted defiance is how their wish to control us manifests itself. I really feel my dd is engaging in a very weird power play with me - she is determined not to treat me like a mother and to show some deference, but she's DESPERATE for me to mother her. She's constantly trying to get me to do things for her - sort her washing out, give her lifts, find her shoes, prepare her snacks, and I'm afraid I've been so resentful of her lack of respect that my response has been 'do it yourself'. I feel like the only control I have left with her is over my own labour, so we're at dead-lock.