In despair - can't go on

[minifingers]

:-(

Many posts on this board about dd.

She went to stay with my mum and sister for 6 weeks at the start of the academic year after some violent outbursts which ended in us getting the police involved.

Things had been a bit better since she got back, but the last few weeks she has started to become more and more difficult with me again, and started getting into trouble again at school.

The long and short of it is that she is verbally abusive to me pretty much every day at the moment and it's destroying me emotionally to the point where I'm starting to feel ill and unable to function as a parent to my other 2 younger dc's.

This morning she asked me to buy her a McDonalds for breakfast. I said no - there was bacon and eggs, bread, yogurt, porridge, flour for pancakes. I told her to make her own breakfast. This precipitated an hour of verbal abuse - I am tight fisted, poor, pathetic, a loser, friendless, lazy, my work is worthless, nobody likes me, I'm useless to everyone.

I try to detach and ignore, but she will follow me around insulting me.

She bullies me and shouts me down, refuses to comply with any requests, constantly reminds me that she can do what she likes when she like, and there is NOTHING dh and I can do about it. She often tells me to 'shut up', makes obscene comments (in the car on Wednesday she spent 10 minutes telling me how she had sucked 5 men's cocks and fucked 15 boys one after another - all rubbish but just said to disgust and distress me. I am pretty sure she is not having sex with 1 boy, let alone dozens), shoves past me in the hallway of the house.

She shouts at me and abuses me if her uniform isn't ready in the morning (if I haven't remembered to hang it out to dry after it has been through the washer), tells me my cooking is disgusting and that the house is disgusting because I'm lazy and useless. She berates me for not having a full-time job or much money, laughs at me, tries to play DH off against me. Says he could do much better than me and that I should just leave.

The abuse is pretty frequent and almost always starts in response to me saying 'no' to her - no you can't have a sleepover on a school night, no you can't have money for the kebab shop, or if I ask her to do something she doesn't feel like doing eg get up in the morning, do some homework, whatever.

She is aggressive, nasty and disrespectful to some of her teachers at school as well, and is currently facing a possible permanent exclusion for disrespectful and disruptive behaviour.

She has a rationale for it all: apparently I am abusive to her because I let her sleep on a new mattress on the floor for several months (was trying to sort all the children's beds out - new bunk beds for the little ones, and she didn't like her old bed frame as it is old fashioned, so I dismantled it ready for storage). She also until recently had no door on her bedroom - it had come of its hinges after she tried to slam it in DH's face a few months ago and he pushed it. Her room is at the end of a long hallway with no other rooms going off it so she still had some privacy. Plus her window is cracked after his cousin kicked a ball into it - not so that there are holes in it, but the glass is crazed in one of the 4 squares. Also took her curtains down to wash and haven't put them back up (no privacy issues, her room overlooks a private garden) and sometimes condensation goes a bit mouldy on her window frame. None of these things are great but the rest of the upstairs of the house is worse. It's a biggish Edwardian terrace and quite scruffy - there is so much to do that we feel overwhelmed by it. Never the less - her room is decent by the standards of the other bedrooms. We put new laminate flooring in about 2 years ago, all the (sadly single glazed) windows were refurbished 3 years ago

[BitOfFunWithSanta]

I find the idea of a child being inherently bad to be very misguided. Something relationally has obviously gone very wrong for this girl to act out in this way.

I think that rather than positioning her as the "problem", the dynamics of the entire situation need to be pulled apart and examined, with professional help, ie Family Therapy. The school or GP should be able to arrange this, and frankly I am astonished that there is no social work involvement.

Carting her away into foster care is not likely to do much beyond increasing her anger issues and sense that she is a disposable family scapegoat.

This can be repaired, but it is going to need ALL of you to work together.

[minifingers]

We are so beyond punishment. :-(

I am going to see my gp this week and see if she can refer us to social services. My mother will have dd, but dd is refusing to go. I really don't know what I can do about this.

I suspect social services won't help us as there is no criminal behaviour and the only one at risk of harm is me. :-(

I've been looking at flats on RightMove and on a benefits calculator trying to figure out how it would work if I left with the younger dc's. But that would be so wrong - for DH and for my boys, to break up our otherwise happy family because of dd's abusive behaviour. Can't believe it has come to this.

I have no answers. She will argue until she is blue in the face that she's 'not that bad' - in her head she has normalised the abuse and disrespect towards us and her teachers and so sees everyone's response to her as unfair and excessive.

[Fluffycloudland77]

You shouldn't have to leave, I've read previous threads of yours. It's not like you haven't tried but she seems determined to break you.

[BitOfFunWithSanta]

Yes, you really need to push for outside help- all of you, because this affects everyone in the family.

I wish you the best of luck, well done for taking that step.

[ThreeBeeOneGee]

I don't really have any helpful advice to offer but I feel for you; this sounds miserable. I think I would try SS. You are being emotionally abused and you are not feeling safe in your own home.

[RandomMess]

I think I would call the police the next time the tirade starts, tell them you are being aggressively verbally abused and no longer feel safe and are concerned for the welfar of your younger dc.

Sounds horrendous

[Ledkr]

Totally agree with BOF however I had lots of trouble with ds1 who is now 28 but I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies. He wasn't abusive but defiant and never stuck to boundaries, he also stole from us to an alarming degree.
Looking back I remember his room being a bit neglected and I often regret that and wonder if we'd have made it nicer would it have helped, who knows.
I'm a child sw and the problem with foster care (which you are unlikely to get btw) is that it will further reject her and also she will probably have access to more money and clothes than you could reciprocate which often exasperates the problems at home.
Have you tried social services because some authorities have services which could help you.
It sounds obvious and I know she's probably beyond this, but have you actually asked her what the problem is?
I wish I could help you more but it's so hard on here.
What have the school suggested?

[minifingers]

We have had family therapy and it was SHIT.

Nobody apart from us has ever tried to get dd to explore WHY she is so obstructive, angry and bullying. It's something which has come on in adolescence - she was not difficult as a child at all.

[Ledkr]

You can contact as yourself via the help desk. Tell then you are going to throw her out. Get your dr onside as well.

[RandomMess]

Do you think it could primarily be hormonal hell?

[BitOfFunWithSanta]

When was it, mini? How many sessions? I'm absolutely not blaming you, but I am surprised that your daughter is being seen by all of you as the ISSUE, rather than the family member who is externalising the conflicts and becoming the repository for all the other stresses and strains. Blaming her alone without looking at the wider dynamic is not going to help any of you.

[Ledkr]

Where are you mini?
I have heard of some kids just being like this as teens for no reason, it must be chemical.
I have some ideas you could try but will have to type it out and pm you when on the big PC and not an I phone.

[Ledkr]

Look up "empathic parenting" sounds too soft I know but it's having great results.

[Stropperella]

These kinds of situations are far more common than people like to think. It gets past the point where it's useful or helpful to allocate blame. Camhs are not the fix-everything resource people like to think they are, not least because they will only work with young people who are cooperative. Sometimes foster care is the only useful solution, but it's heartbreaking for a parent to have to make that decision. It's still for the best in some cases, but it's crap that you have to fight for it to happen, when the situation is so fraught for the family anyway. OP, it would be good if you could get in contact t in RL with other parents who have been through similar situations; it would make you feel less alone.

[Mintyy]

Your threads about your dd always make me think of that Bootcamp series, where troubled teens were sent away to commune with nature in the American wild west in the care of some absolutely amazing mentors and carers.

I have said this many of your previous threads about dd, but something is awry in your family dynamic and someone external needs to help you fix it. You running away, whilst understandable, is not going to make anything better.

Could she be bi-polar, schizophrenic, on the asd spectrum?? Have all these been investigated?

[MumOfTheMoos]

Oh, I really feel for you. She sounds just like my sister was and I cannot imagine how hard it must be to have a daughter like that (I have tried often, as obviously my Mum is in your position).

Behaviour like this is entirely unacceptable and had fuck all to do with the curtains not being up in her room.

It may well not be mental illness; apparently my sister (she is in her late 40's now and I haven't seen her apart from a couple of tines when we've been in the same room for nearly 15 years) went to a psychiatrist and he said she wasn't mentally ill she was just a manipulative bully. He was spot on.

Please be very clear - this is not your fault, this is all about her.

As it is not your fault there is not much you can do to change her. You have to protect yourself, your DH and your DCs.

I think you should take a break and see if once she has lost her main victim she calms down a bit and goes to your Mum's.

I really, really feel for you. Protect yourself and remember not to buy into her bullying.

[Mintyy]

Mary - you should kick your ds out right now! He is much older than Mini's dd.

I wonder if teens sometimes test their parents to the very limit to see if they (the parents) really do love them unconditionally.

Its a dangerous tactic because I know some parents of horrendously difficult teens (as you describe, Mary and Mini) who have detached so much that they now simply cannot forget and forgive. And quite understandably so.

Parents do not have to be saints forever and ever. For weeks and months and years, yes perhaps they do. But not indefinitely. Not always until the child gets a grip and wants to reconcile. Some parents will never feel like reconciling and I don't entirely blame them.

[Stropperella]

And BTW it's not acceptable if a teenager is violent towards you or their siblings or your property - in the exact same way as it isn't acceptable if an adult does it. Would it be fine if you had a partner who repeatedly slammed doors in a rage so that they came off their hinges? No. Well, it's not ok when your child does it either,and sometimes the safest and most sensible course of action in these situations is for said child to move somewhere neutral, i. e. care. Moving in with a member of the extended family is not always helpful in the long-run.

[MumOfTheMoos]

Yes, Maryz, I wouldn't have another adult in my home treating me like that.

You've done your bit now.

[Ledkr]

maryz I don't mean to sound patronising, I just remember how awful it was and want to try to help.
I did kick mine out at 17 after he'd cashed a cheque of mine for 200 quid and we had nothing left he could sell!
Fucking awful time.

[minifingers]

The wider dynamic is this: as she has got older our expectations of her have grown, as they do. We have expected the following of her: that she goes to school, gets there on time (mostly), does what her teachers ask (mostly), keeps up with the work (mostly), helps (a bit) at home, treats us with respect (mostly), comes home after school at a reasonable time (by about 5) or phones us to let us know where she is.

She has consistently flouted all of these expectations for years. We changed her school to what we hoped was a better one, offered her support with her work, praised every good piece of work she ever showed us, liaised with her teachers, bribed her, eventually threatened her (with loss of money, internet, phone). Nada. She is adamant that she is 'fine' at school, and we are expecting 'perfection'. We are not. We are just sick to the back teeth of the complaining letters and phone calls from the school - about her rudeness and defiance, her failure to complete work, to stop talking/move seats/turn up on time. She has reduced some of her teachers to desperation. And these are teachers at a fairly tough London comp who are used to challenging kids.

And we CAN'T get to the bottom of it - why she won't try, and why the more everyone tries to get her to make an effort the more aggressive and obstructive she gets.

She doggedly does whatever she wants at home no matter how much it inconveniences anyone else.

And yes - I admit I've not handled this all that well as time has passed. I have raged, cried, pleaded, criticised, threatened. I've been cold with her at times, very cold - just out of deep deep despair and frustration over the years. She's hurt me so much in an attempt to stop me asking her to do anything or assert my authority as a parent. She is constantly telling me I can't make her do anything, and showing me that this is true. She has also hurt and humiliated DH, though less than me.

[FunnyFestiveTableRunner]

I think I remember a couple of your previous threads OP. I'm sorry you are in this situation but it really can't go on.

How do you feel about her? Do you love her? Do you like her? (There will be no judgement here, I have had some experience of very difficult teens where some parents loved them but intensely disliked them. I have also known a few where the parents said they no longer felt anything. They were worn into the ground and felt like all the love they had felt was gone.)

You need respite from your DD, for the sake of your own health and the rest of your children. I think you need to have a conversation with her tomorrow if possible - broken record - you love her but you need a break because you are no longer able to tolerate her behaviour. Let her rant, rage. If she threatens you tell her you will not accept this and you will be calling the police.

She is a child and clearly an unhappy one. Something has gone very wrong and how much is nature and how much is nurture isn't clear. Regardless, you need some time out. You don't deserve to be treated like this. She is not at liberty to see this as acceptable behaviour. She needs to see consequences.

You need support and possibly a voluntary care arrangement. However if she treats her GM with more love and respect and GM is willing to have her that is the ideal situation.