Formal event. No bra?

[LettuceSpray]

I have a really lovely friend. We have been good friends since our children were born 30 years ago.She’s an old school feminist in her 70s, doesn’t wear make up etc. I admire that, and I am a jeans and t shirt minimal make up kind of person but, do have an eye for trends and make an effort to scrub up well a couple of times a year.

Friend is about to be awarded a major honour which will involve a day out in a very fancy place and lots of photos (perhaps you can work out where and what I mean). She has asked me for advice on what to wear. She refuses to buy anything new, but what’s worse is she has modelled potential outfits for me and they all involve dead flat sensible shoes and no bra. I am fully aware how shallow I sound. I don’t think she needs to invest a fortune in new clothes and a hat but with old flat shoes and no bra she looks as though she really doesn’t care. And she does care, she’s really quite conventional and very proud of the honour. She just doesn’t seem to have picked up on how people dress smartly. I think she associates underwear, make up and formal clothes with old fashioned conformism (yes she really is a a 1970s style feminist).

How can I convince her very diplomatically that she would look much more appropriate with a bra, tiny weeny bit of make up and some dressy shoes? Not at all stiff, formal and expensive but a bit less Greenham Common? (GC women were awesome and inspirational but friend has specifically asked for advice on a look appropriate to the place and occasion).

She's asked for advice so I would be honest.
Smart patent ballet flats, good bra & and trim/blow dry.
Bit of lippy

If she doesn't want to. That's her choice - respect it, but I would be honest. Since she's asked

Most outfits look better with a bra unless your an A/B cup or have fake boobs. They’re just too floppy otherwise and pull your outfit out of shape. Plus adding width if they’re high or girth to your middle if they’re low.

She’ll thank herself for wearing a bra when she sees the photos.,

The bra thing - I think realistically, if she hasn't worn a bra in years, that won't change. And although I wouldn't dream of attending an event like this without make up, I think it's okay if she doesn't. But things like hair brushing are just a sign of decent respect, for men and women (pity Boris Johnson probably isn't reading this). So I'd say something like,

"Right, I love that outfit. I think all your existing shoes don't really add anything to it - you need something a little more elegant to go with the outfit and the occassion. What about a pair of [insert colour] flat ballet shoe style or loafers? I've seen some fab ones at [insert store you've already researched]. Are you considering any make up at all - for the photos, perhaps even just some tinted moisteriser and some mascara? With that outfit, I think your best bet is to put your hair up/get a professional blow dry so it's straight/wavy [insert as appropriate]."

If she then says something like "Oh, I can' tbe bothered with getting my hair done" you go back lightly with, "Fair enough - but you have to brush it. No Boris Johnson casualness here please!" or whatever.

Perhaps she's worried about wearing heels? When I got mine, I wore flatties to wander around London, then put on my heels for the event.
To be honest, I'd suggest several layers of thermals if she is going in winter; the room where they all congregate before the event is fucking freezing. Imagine trying to heat Webley stadium with a 2-bar heater ...
However, I do think it's common courtesy to at least wear a bra, particularly if her boobs are travelling south towards her knees (as are mine!)

How wonderful! But it is freezing in the Palace - I went in February

You see these things as treats.
I see them as a boring waste of time and money.

We’re all different and I don’t think there are any rules for attending at Buckingham Palace. Whichever royal is doing the presentation is extremely unlikely to be looking at her feet

This is style and beauty @GiantHornets of course I see them as treats 😂 surely most people on this board would.
What a great shame to receive a huge award at the palace not looking your best.
I believe she does want to look her best otherwise she wouldn't have asked for advice in the first place, the sad thing is, if she is conditioned to viewing dressing up as a frivolous waste of time and money, perhaps she feels uncomfortable asking for help. All I know is that when I look better, I feel better, but maybe that's me projecting and for that I apologise.

Take her shoe shopping. Absolutely don't try to get her in heels. She will not feel like herself. But some smart flat shoes (loafers or something) would be suitable. If she'd take offence can you lend her some of yours? Re. Hair say you and your friends would like to treat her to a haircut. Again, she wants to look like herself so a haircut nicely styled would be better than a big old blowdry.

I don't really know how you sort her underwear though. If she's wearing a smart jacket would anyone even notice?

If she has asked you for advice I’d say pick some really nice ballet flats or a kitten heel.

Makeup, maybe take her along to some counters like Clinique where they can do a natural look, my American friend who hates makeup got a Clinique makeover before her wedding.

Hair, have her commit to at least a cut and colour before the event and then ensure it’s something she can do for it.

You could try to get her hair/makeup appointments before her trip/visit to the palace, depending on time all the big hair salons and department stores/beauty salons would be open.

If she’s asked you for advice then give it to her and definitely a bra! Most women look better in them and it’s hardly like the 60s/70s where the no bra look was on trend.

She sounds a bit like my DM who when my DB got married looked good but hasn’t worn proper makeup apart from the odd bit of foundation and blusher since she was younger and hair she’s a bit rigid with. She knows it’s fine and thinning so concentrates on that side more than styling it.

I’m sticking with Emma Thompson as inspiration. If your friend isn’t comfortable in heels, the pain is going to make the day miserable.

She needs to feel comfortable and authentic. Although, By walking shoes do you mean a pair of polished brogues or muddy walking boots?

I retract my earlier comment about the bra. She’s obviously achieved fabulous things and doing things her way is working for her. She should stick with it!

If she's the kind of woman who's spent her life not giving a shit about fashion, I'm confident she can carry off sensible footwear and no bra with smiling, carefree, confidently fabulous British eccentricity. I personally think she'd look better as described than in pinching new shoes, token make-up, uncomfortable underwear and a generic, forgettable "safe older lady outfit".

As long as they're clean, the hiking boots will make her look like a busy, no-nonsense country woman who's popped into the Palace on her way to walk the dogs. The old Queen, Princess Anne and Camilla will no doubt clock her as a woman after their own heart.

Isn't there a dress code for these things? There is for garden parties so I would imagine there would be for investitures and the like.

I disagree with your comment about the late queen, Princess Anne and Camilla. Although they no doubt were/are very happy in country clothes etc they absolutely stick to convention and correct protocol for events. They always dress correctly for every occasion, and I'm sure would expect someone receiving such a prestigious award at the palace to do so too. Why would anyone want to look like they were walking the dogs when they were actually getting a (?) damehood?

She sounds a remarkable woman and I think should present in keeping with her own style BUT she can do that in a slightly more polished way since she's asked you.

Start v positive 'great outfit, definitely stick with the green. The colour really suits you. However, I think I'd go with slightly smarter flats. What about ballet flats, brogues or Chelsea boots? They're in at the minute, not really heels and you can wear them again. Makeup wise, it's not about going OTT but you will be in a lot of photos. You could just do a bit of tinted moisturiser, mascara and lippy, or Bobbi Brown are good. We could visit a counter. Similarly, I'd probably just get my hair done at the hairdressers to save any fuss'.

Bra wise, I'd go head on when she tries on an outfit. 'you look amazing but I personally would have something underneath, maybe one of these bralets if not a full bra. I just think it would work really well with the line of the dress' only if it actually needs it though. If not and it's just for the sake of decorum and you can't tell, leave her to it.

It sounds to me that she recognises you as a close friend who will give her good honest advice in this situation. Be positive about how she looks and her outfit choices, just be honest about the surface polish she's asking about.

^ This ^. It's the best advice you've had all day. Your friend has asked, and you can answer helpfully and kindly.

The "have to wear make up" notion really boggles me. I'm 65, I love clothes; I love dressing up. If I were getting this award I have several outfits and flat dressy shoes which meet the remit ( not that that wouldn't stop me buying a new one). I wouldn't be wearing make up.

This is style and beauty ^**^@GiantHornets of course I see them as treats 😂 surely most people on this board would

I spend 1000's on clothes- never had a pedicure or a manicure and no interest in having one. I really dislike obviously blow dried and straightened hair.

I don't think OP should be foisting these things on to her friend. Hair, clean abd brushed, perhaps tied back or put up will be fine.

I don't understand why you can't just say " in my opinion, outfit A (or b or c - pick your favourite) but I think it would look much better with a good bra and some smart shoes"
It's not shallow or offensive at all it's your opinion and she's asked you for just that.
If she doesn't take your advice then fair do's, you can't make her.

David Hockney wore yellow crocs and a Savile Row suit for lunch with the king...
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/fashion/david-hockney-fashion-suits-crocs-b2278227.html

You keep going on about the bra. If she has a suitable and appropriate outfit then thats enough. Im not sure why specific underwear is needed

Some women dont wear bras, its not mandatory

I think this is great advice and measured. If she genuinely needs the help to get through the day (and she has asked), given there will be others that have gone all out, and she does not want to look "completely out of place" therefore making herself uncomfortable, then this will work well. If she doesn't really give a sh1t, then neither should she - she hasn't got the honours for being dressed in a certain way, then she should not have to receive them in a certain way either. All that said, if any of my kids got this sort of honours, I would be pressing their best jeans, and begging, "please wear what you like but please no hoodies and joggers", if only to make your grandparents proud, and also that they might be hoiked out by security as a down and out. But it is not about what I think, nor what my friends think, or what anyone else thinks. I think it is an award about contribution to society, and therefore, what you wear to receive it is almost irrelevant as long as you are comfortable, and that extends to what might be "comfortable" given the occasion.

You sound like a good friend, OP.

I agree that ballet flats and a good haircut will go a long way. Most of us would be more comfortable in a bit of makeup but your friend needs to feel good in her skin. If she would feel phoney in makeup, wearing it is counterproductive.

The Bra Question. I agree she is almost certain to look (much) better if wearing some support. A great bra is actually very comfortable but can be expensive. And may not be worth the argument. Unless your friend is very large of boob she can achieve most of the effect with a good bralette, much more economically.

Not sure if this has been covered but is it possible she's only showing you the pics for an opinion on the dress? But will wear appropriate shoes and a bra for the actual event?

I only ask because I often sent pics of me in potential dresses but with no make up, dishevelled hair and slippers just to get the opinion on the actual dress!

And I add all the other bits in (hair, shoes and make up) on the night!

I'd just come out with it.

The outfit is great but it needs dressier shoes or it just looks scruffy. And a bra. Or tit tape if you don't want a bra, it doesn't hang right otherwise. D'you want me to do you a little bit of makeup for the occasion, it'll stop the cameras from washing you out in the photos? (Assuming there will be photos.)

Also - how big are her boobs? I'm an F cup so need scaffolding for mine. But I have friends who are A cups and can go without a bra and they look fine.