Seriously, am I meant to be wearing suntan lotion every day?

[AutumnalEquinox]

It seems that I am doing something really wrong here, because I am not wearing SPF every day. I've tried to find one that is light, and in the past I have had face creams and foundations with SPF 15 in them, but I just can't seem to tolerate getting up in the morning and slapping on sun tan lotion under my makeup before I go out in the winter. It would break me out in greasy spots.

Am I doomed? I am wearing toner, serum, and moisturiser, but not putting a layer of SPF on. I know it is about UV rays I can't see, but I don't have many wrinkles or sun damage as I've had my skin analysed tested.

@HangingByYourFingernails or just take a supplement and don't risk your skin

XH was getting increasingly sick with various symptoms and the Drs suspected COPD. He went for tests and was found to have really low levels of vit D.

I use Body Shop factor 50 everyday - apply after moisturiser and before primer/makeup.

I don't find it smells of chemicals and I don't have any issues with make up pilling underneath it, and my skin doesn't feel greasy.

I've just gotten into the habit of it now.

But that was Vitamin D deficiency causing symptoms of Vitamin D deficiency, which is totally different from the claim that a deficiency of sunlight causes millions of deaths from cardiovascular disease etc.

And one person's experience tells you nothing about the average risk. Both my grandfathers smoked like chimneys and lived till their late 80s with no smoking-related disease. Does that mean that smoking isn't dangerous?

So?
This thread is about sunscreen and sun exposure and Vit D has been mentioned

I made no reference to cardiovascular disease and my comments are valid. You don’t get to decide what we discuss.

I was going to recommend this too. I have rosacea so MUST wear spf every day. This is the best one I've found

Which one do you buy @MrsFinkelstein?

Do we really have to wear factor 50 in winter as well? Is factor 25 sufficient?

Wow eight pages. I have pale skin, and it's sensitive too, as are my eyes(!) altruist do a very good face spf that lasts ages and their foundation supports people with albinism. Still stings like hellfire if it gets in my eyes though through sweating, or if i rub my face and eyes, so if anyone has found one that doesn't please tell me.

I don't think, unless you apply a lot of foundation, as in, all over your face, spf in foundation is going to give the same protection.

I used a powdered sunscreen once to avoid the eye stinging, worse than useless and and I have the sun damage that must now be monitored to prove it.

Skin cancer rates are on the rise. I would just do it. I don't use an additional moisturiser so it's no more faff.

Altruist Dermatologist Sunscreen Fluid SPF – Superior 5star UVA protection by Dr Andrew Birnie premium antioxidant face protection, White, Unscented, 50 millilitre https://amzn.eu/d/0WBHebX

I wear it every day because I use Tretinoin. I use biore aqua it's very good, like a gel.

LOL at the idea that promoting modest sun exposure is an extremist conspiracy. By whom? Big Sunshine?

The (many) researchers cited in that paper are from universities like Harvard and Cambridge, and published in mainstream peer reviewed journals like the BMJ. Their research will be funded by their salaries and research council grants (not some foundation who hosted one meeting). You might not like their conclusions but they are very far from fringe.

As for being systematic, the paper I linked to is a narrative review but there are multiple systematic reviews of the strong links between vitamin d and mortality, including one that is cited in the paper:
https://www.bmj.com/content/348/bmj.g1903.long

And regarding your claim that we would necessarily see more disease in northern Europe than the med, that's just wrong. First, there is the problem of multifactoriality. You mention it yourself, but you don't seem to realise quite how much it matters. Consider obesity. We know it's bad, does it follow that all countries with high levels of obesity are sicker overall than all countries with low levels? No, of course not. There are many other factors (wealth, healthcare, infectious diseases, genetics) that collectively matter more than obesity. You can easily find countries that are higher in obesity but lower in mortality rates (and vice versa), and that doesn't contradict the harmfulness of obesity at all. That's why we don't study obesity (or sun exposure) at the country level - we measure it at the level of the individual and try to control for other factors when estimating its effects.

Second, you seem to be conflating sunlight exposure with distance from the equator, and you can't do this, or straightforwardly infer one from the other. This paper (below) measures vitamin d deficiency in various countries and as you can see (figs 2&3), they are all over the place. Just as an example, vitamin d deficiency is high in most of the middle east (I'm guessing it's related to modesty...), but low in, say, Canada. So picking some random sunny countries and stating their individual disease levels is not going to tell you very much at all regarding the benefits of sunshine. The papers I've cited OTOH - which study individual level sun exposure and vitamin d directly, and analyse large samples in a systematic, multifactorial way - tell you quite a lot. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2023.1070808/full

You can caveat as much as you like but, if you argue that lack of sunlight increases the risk of disease, you need to show that there is more disease in less sunny countries.

There is as much of these diseases in sunny countries as non-sunny ones. So where is the evidence of increased risk from lack of sunshine? There isn't any.

It's all a load of woo. The paper you are quoting is from an open access journal that anyone can publish in. All the scientists had their time funded by the Sunshine Health Foundation who are a bunch of screaming loons. Let's look at a couple of quotes from their website:

• 21st Century Science says: Risk of melanoma from the sun is only associated with severe sunburns (“severe” means they hurt for at least 48 hours or cause blistering or peeling). Paradoxically, non-burning sun exposure actually reduces risk of melanoma. Contrary to what “they” say, non-burning sun exposure, even in very large lifetime amounts, is not associated with increased melanoma risk.
• if you are pregnant and have insufficient sun exposure, your baby is more likely to be born preterm, die from sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), be autistic, get type 1 diabetes, have poor fetal brain development, have learning disabilities, have a low IQ, have poor language skills, have cavity-prone teeth, have high risk for schizophrenia, have asthma, have poor lung development, have high risk for lower respiratory tract infection (LRTI), have brittle bones and/or be constantly sick.

This is a load of codswallop.

My moisturiser has SPF in it and so does my foundation so, yes, I always wear it.

I have very sensitive skin and eyes, and my absolute favourite is the Nivea dark spot control one (having previously used Altruist).

I only use suntan lotion if I'm abroad or it's a heatwave here. On makeup videos, you never see them apply sunscreen before foundation. They just say 'I've done my skincare already'. I'm unconvinced the influencers are using it themselves.

Sunscreen makes my eyes run, even the modern ones featured in the beauty press. I've got ok skin for my age, a few wrinkles won't kill me.

Thank you, will give it a try. I need mutiple tubes anyway as I can never find them.

NIVEA Cellular Luminous 630 Anti Dark-Spot Day Moisturiser SPF 50 (40ml), Hydrating Fluid Protects From Dark-Spot Darkening and Photoageing for Smooth, Illuminated Skin https://amzn.eu/d/cWshvYL

Is this the one?

That's what I am using @BodgerSparkins

So where is the evidence of increased risk from lack of sunshine? There isn't any.

Its in the British Medical Journal. You know, the world leading publication to which I provided a link. You can't make something true just by repeating yourself and using words like codswallop.

And for the record - open access articles are still very much peer reviewed. OA means that anyone can read it, it is definitely not the case that anyone can publish in it 🤦🤦🤦

to get the required vitamin D one only needs to have a very short amount of time in the sun.
Sometimes yes, but it varies hugely by latitude, date and skin colour. The calculator I shared is really useful if you want to figure it out.

Wearing spf won't realistically prevent people getting enough vitamin D
Often this is true yes. Most studies on this are based on people wearing SPF15 in a hot country in summer, which is completely reasonable and something I would do myself. What concerns me is the advice I'm increasingly seeing to avoid the sun altogether (not saying you're promoting this). People with no previous history of skin cancer are being advised to wear copious amounts of SPF50, all year round, including indoors, in the UK, even if they have dark skin. I'd be really surprised if this didn't result in vitamin d deficiency, because the explicit aim is to avoid all UV exposure, and this is the primary source of vitamin d for most people.

I supplement my vitamin d. I'd rather protect my skin and get vitamin d
I also pop the odd pill in the depths of winter. However, I'm aware that there is strong evidence of large benefits of sunshine exposure, Vs much weaker evidence for smaller benefits of vitamin d pills. So I wouldn't willingly swap one for the other unless I couldn't get the sunshine (e.g. because it's winter). It's a bit like eating fruit and veg Vs taking a multivitamin.

This is the one I have, @BodgerSparkins .

Try Korean websites. Asian sunscreens are light years ahead.

Obviously it's a free choice what you and don't do in terms of health and beauty.

Personally, I started using daily high SPF (ideally factor 50, sometimes 30) in my early 30s and it DOES make a massive aesthetic difference in my opinion. I'd rather do this than other beauty treatments or make up.

Eating oily fish, water, sunscreen does work (I often don't manage all three, when I do I glow!).

For buying, the price has come right down - I think Aldi have the children's factor 50 roll on sometimes? I got the last 2 from poundland (not a pound but less than £10 for 2).

I used to get the pricey ones off amazon but tbh my skin is OK with the cheaper ones so I'm good there.

Thank you both for the recommendation on the Nivea option.

It does state on guidance I've read that those with very fair skin, who therefore likely use sun cream every day, that it's worth taking a vitamin D supplement.

I vaguely remember a study investigating the reasons behind Norwegians having higher levels of vit D than others at a similar position in relation to the equator, it was the oily fish...fermented fish as I remember rightly. You can certainly obtain vit D from other sources, and if your risk is high (like me, fair skin, history of albeit non-melanoma skin cancer within the family) then do it with fermented fish or supplementation certainly.

Interestingly I've seen it demonstrated that there isn't that much difference between certain spf levels (30 and 50 were what they used to demonstrate this) also that you need to pay upmost attention to the UVA rating in combination with spf. Honestly, start reading and it all gets a bit confusing.

Now, sunglasses, that's what I never remember!

Now, sunglasses, that's what I never remember!

I always remember sunglasses. I wear glasses anyway, and do a lot of driving. I have very photosensitive eyes and cannot walk around or drive in bright sunlight without sunglasses.

Not wearing them increases not only the risk of eye cancer but of cataracts.