Can we talk about clothing brands and target demographics?

[CrkdLttrCrkdLttr]

Because I’m thinking about the brands that form the core of my ‘going out to meet other grown ups’ wardrobe, and laughing at the Margaret Howell mail shot I’ve just opened. (Socks and sandals photo.) Beautiful young model, and each garment will be wonderfully well made - but I know no one under fifty who wears MH. That’s fine - but I wish the marketing acknowledged the fact.

When a brand does make an effort to engage with the real buyers of its clothes I’m full of awe and gratitude - Raey at Matches is usually great at this.

Studio Nicholson hovers somewhere in between. Again, everyone I know (in the UK) who wears their clothes is older and richer than me, probably in a creative profession. Not a wispy 20 year old.

I never used to care. But I’m wondering if marketing is the reason 99% of the middle aged and older women on MN exclaim that there are no decent clothes for them. There are - but not every brand tells you so.

Another suggestion, that I just discovered today, is too good
I actually just bought their baker trousers. Beautiful. And re:workwear, check the names of the garments

My cat definitely has a strong sense of aesthetics. She likes to sit next to vases of flowers, and chooses the finest cushion to sit on. Her meow is discordant though. Not sure what happened there.

If we are going workwear, I think we have to have tobi pants

too good has a lovely aesthetic but who could sustainably pay nearly £200 for a printed tshirt?
This is the problem and it isn't going to go away. No way can any conscious brand excuse that for a cotton tee with print.
We do need to pay more for clothing, and we need so desperately to get away from the low priced fast fashion model, but this isn't the solution bar a few well off niche consumers who really, really want to look the part.

I feel sad that there doesn't seem to be a middle ground.

What do the middle ground look like? A £70 skirt is likely to be synthetic fabric. although I do love the animal print one, I'd prefer silk, maybe not the price tag that would come with it.

What is the price bracket for middle ground and what are our fabric, construction requirements?

I don't think there is a middle ground right now; it's either ebay, extortion, or tat.

What is the price bracket for middle ground and what are our fabric, construction requirements?

I don't expect people to agree with me because from what I read on Mumsnet people have very definite ideas on here of what's acceptable and what isn't, but I've found my own middle ground. I've just paid £240 for a cotton turtle neck top and polyester pinafore dress, inclusive of import duty and shipping. I expect a lot are thinking ugh polyester wouldn't want it for a fiver, but I don't mind it as a fabric. It needs less or no ironing, doesn't seem to shrink and is often warmer in cool weather because it's less breathable than natural fabrics, although that depends on how it's made. I've got polyester in my wardrobe that's wispy thin and a sturdy cotton tee would be warmer. I'm happy to pay that amount to this company because I know the clothes will be very well made, any problems will be appropriately dealt with, all the staff in every part of the production process from initial design to dispatching the item will be being treated well and properly paid. Plus it's a new company and whilst I don't know what scale of orders they're receiving I accept it probably costs more to make 100 of something than it does to make 1000 of it, not more overall but more in terms of cost per item is what I mean. I'll also be getting exactly what I want and not an item where I'm thinking this'll do.

This isn't my normal method of shopping. I usually buy fast fashion and although some of it isn't good quality and doesn't last (in terms of looking good and not shrinking, it generally hasn't actually fallen apart or developed holes within a few months), a lot of it is surprisingly good quality fabric for the price and lasts very well. I'm looking to move away from fast fashion for environmental and ethical reasons

FFS! I think I fell asleep while congratulating @microbius on your purchase. And wanted to know which colour you’d chosen. I love the fact that you found the brand yesterday and bought something from them on the same day - you’re clearly the person they’re making their clothes for.

I don’t think I am. I’ve admired their knitwear every Winter and rushed to order a wondrously sculptural, thick and crunchy hat a few years ago, in the sale. But as I may have mentioned earlier in this thread, even in the sale the co-ordinating gloves seemed very ordinary for the price. Faye Toogood gets an enormous amount of positive publicity at the cool-intellectual-creative end of journalism, and they do seem to intend their stock to be special:

t-o-o-g-o-o-d.com/pages/introduction-collection018-journal

Sometimes the things are. I recall a long colourless cotton dress with a bright blue hand painted swirl across the front - absolutely something one might keep forever, and maybe hang on the wall if you didn’t feel cool enough to wear it with aplomb. But it would need other eyes than mine to discern the special in some of the other items. The Baker trousers are cute, though!

I've never gotten the hype around Too good personally, it very much feels to me like it's appealing to looking creative without being it (I'm sure the trousers are lovely). There's several brands like that (Bella Freud, Vampire's Wife, etc.) that just appear to be well connected and message well. I've forgotten the name (it might have been Plan C) that was marketed as being for architects at a price point architects would never be able to afford (with the exception of a rare few) and it really lacked any interesting details that would excite an architect (it was all black but not all architects are like that 🤨). It was just supposed to appeal to better paid professions that wanted the appearance of architectural taste.

I agree with you about the perils of greenwashing Kitty and I don't mean mean to pick on you IndianSummer but your post is a fairly good example of it in effect.

Middle ground is tough, I consider arket, cos, etc my lower budget end but for many that will be the middle to upper of theirs. But there's definitely been an erosion of brands that sit just above this, I suppose Ganni sort of sits there. The other scandi brands like By Malene Birger, Filippa K, etc have all gone up in price and abandoned this space.

Hmm … Actually that’s another way of comprehending the MN hive mind position on clothes - it’s all about aspiring to the mid range. When in fact those are often the worst clothes available. One can dress perfectly well for pennies (with or without an ethical mindset). And I (of the long-lost OG Jil Sander wardrobe) am often genuinely shocked at the prices High St shops want for their stuff. But people scream in anguish if you suggest looking beyond Mint Velvet.

Same, Zara at full price seems like daylight robbery to me, don't get me started on their sister brand Massimo Dutti. I suppose it goes back to Lime's point early on in the thread that some MNers go to great lengths to emphasise women should not be seen to be spending a lot of money on themselves, it should go to others first and benches. (And, sorry, but the worthiness of charity shopping on here plays into this narrative as well).

A mid range shop would make life easier. My wardrobe runs from Rick Owens and Joseph through to Matalan plus charity shops and TKMaxx. Sometimes I'd like an easier more reliable shopping experience.

Quality is not dictated by price, many price points are manufactured on the 7th floor of a two storey Bangladeshi sweat shop. Country of manufacture also does not dictate quality, there are skilled crafts people the planet over. Label does not indicate quality, I've had Jigsaw trousers last a decade ad their t-shirts struggle to make it through a season.

I'd forgotten about By Malene Birger.

Just to say I absolutely love this thread! In answer to the OP’s question - for years I thought Margaret Howell was too old and unsexy. I’ve always loved good quality, natural fibres, when I was broke in my 20s I shopped in charity shops and although I am now more solvent I still buy almost exclusively second hand. A few years ago I realised one of my favourite pieces was a sleeveless Margaret Howell shirt which, 25 years after I had bought it, still looked impeccable… so now I am a fan (maybe also because I am older and wiser ;)…) One of the reasons I love shopping second hand is that I can afford to make mistakes whilst searching for good quality and trying to hone what I look like (ie relevant, but like myself IYSWIM). And coming across all sorts of amazing brands I’ve never heard of! If I was more discerning I could buy much less top quality brand new, but for me the fun is in the finding - and at second hand prices I can afford to take risks and make mistakes.

Sorry what I meant was if I were more discerning I could afford to buy fewer pieces, but top quality and brand new. Definitely not shopping second hand to be worthy / eco warrior although I do enjoy the fact I’m in synch with the zeitgeist by chance rather than by design!

Yeah, just to be clear nothing wrong with charity shops, if you've got some with great stock for very little money near you, I am beyond envious.

But I do think the charity shoppers could be a bit more honest and say they get quite a lot of duds in the process of finding the greats. That they have the time and headspace for it and that part of the appeal is also the thrill of a bargain. Despite the snootiness about labels sometimes on here when it's charity shops it's all about what label you've found for a freakishly low price. Would they have bought that new in the sale, or in the charity shop with a different brand on it?

There was a French Vogue street style review with Sophie Fontanel a while back where she commented that brands make their reputation (for quality) in the secondhand market and I thought it was a really interesting point.

@Kittycattenklump , I agree with you about the yoghurt lid, but they did give prior warning that they were ding away with the lids. What they could do is offer a durable reusable lid that you could buy separately, or get by collecting a few foil lids or tokens. Their greek-style yoghurt is particularly good.

If I have plain yoghurt that needs to be eaten quickly, I use it when cooking. It usually keeps well past it's best before date if unopened.

Re-use is better than recycling IMO.

Thanks @CrkdLttrCrkdLttr I didn't realise you mentioned them upthread. I went to the Matchesfashion sample sale, so the Toogood is from there. I think they mislabeled it (I bought size 0, and I am 12) so that's probably why it ended up in a sale. There was only one item, in black. They sit much shorter on me than on the model (I am 6 feet and taller than the usual model for photoshoots though this depends on the brand). I wanted for a long time to have a harem/Japanese/Yohji Yamamoto/ dropped crotch skirt/cropped trousers. [I had a similar pair 15 years ago and wore them to death] I think they are quite hard to make/design well, especially that they try to accommodate a range of sizes. I once tried Kate Sheridan one and it was all wrong around the crotch and too bulky.

This one is perfect; the fabric is quite weighty (nice drill cotton), although not too thick, and the trousers have three smartly placed pleats + gathered waist and good pockets. There was another pair - another attempt at harem-like - from Celine in the same sale and despite being more expensive, it was just slightly too scruffy-looking (made from jersey, too) and tipping into the style direction that the wearer wouldn't be able to easily counteract.

I don't think i'd ever dare buy them if I didn't physically encounter them. Looking at the brand's website, I would have felt this "samey, good promotion and false hype" feeling you are describing up thread. But given that current fashion seem to be a lot of the same ideas recycled around, to me this is the kind of trouser I was looking for that happened to be made by them but I could have eventually found it elsewhere IYSWIM

I have a bit more money than I used to and I really liked the look of Massimo Dutti so at Christmas I had a bit of a splurge on their website in the sale. I have a pair of their trousers I found in TK Maxx for £12 some years ago - still look new and I wear them regularly.

Everything went back. Tissue paper thin fabrics, scratchy seams. It all looked totally shit, meanly cut. I've had better quality from Primark. I was really disappointed.

I buy most of my clothes from Vinted/charity shops/eBay and was looking forward to buying something brand new.

It's interesting what you all say about the middle ground. I've just spent £150 on a shirt which is a ridiculous amount of money for me but I LOVE it.

I'll make a pic later on to show to people - I think women are often looking for this kind of thing; and it's worth stalking it in the sale

If I'm buying new, my entry level shops are H&M, Uniqlo, M&S. My middle ground is Cos and my top end would be Margaret Howell in the sales and maybe Toast.
In terms of quality, I find one of the big differences between them is consistency. I've had some great stuff from Uniqlo that's lasted years - it's definitely there. But I've also had utter, utter shite e.g. I will never buy their cashmere again even now I know some posters really rate it. I just wish I had the ability to tell the great stuff from the duds before cutting the tags off.
In the middle, I find Cos generally wears better than pretty much anywhere else I've tried on the high street, but I wouldn't call it top drawer quality e.g. I've had shrinking even after very careful washing.
With Margaret Howell I don't think I've even had a button drop off. I once accidentally washed one of her linen shirts on 90 degrees and it was absolutely fine.

By the way I agree that charity shoppers - and I am one - are far too selective with our memories. I recently re-donated all my mistakes from last year and seeing them all in a pile was quite a wake up call. We don't talk about this nearly enough.

I’m glad you found them, and they found you, @microbius - I can imagine it might be difficult to find everything you want to complement your height.

I do miss sample sales!

'And, sorry, but the worthiness of charity shopping on here plays into this narrative as well
No need to apologise. I got a lovely silk Laura Ashley skirt the other day for £2. I would not have sought it out, and I bought it because it had something about it and was affordable. I didn't realise it was silk until I was at the till.

One of the reasons I love shopping second hand is that I can afford to make mistakes whilst searching for good quality ... And coming across all sorts of amazing brands I’ve never heard of! If I was more discerning I could buy much less top quality brand new, but for me the fun is in the finding - and at second hand prices I can afford to take risks and make mistakes.
Me too.

I think that I might have issues in that 'I don't deserve anything full-priced', but I will buy if something is IMO perfect. I'd love to buy expensive clothes, but I'd probably buy whole outfits, and I sort of quite like my haphazard 'style'.

There wasn't a lot on the Toogood site that took my fancy. I'd rather re-work something pre-loved than pay nearly £400 for elasticated waist jeans.
I did like some of the things like the perfumer trousers and the gilet, and maybe if I saw and touched them, I'd think differently.