M&S - it's over

[Floisme]

I've been known to defend M&S on here but if this is their attitude they can fuck right off.

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/05/not-just-for-over-55s-ms-chairman-says-chain-needs-younger-clothing

Because of course the over 55s just loved The Pink Dress. And all that yellow. We can't get enough of it.

No, Mr Norman, you haven't been 'buying too much for the over 55 customer'. What you've been buying, is too much shite.

I walk through M&S at least once a week as it's a short cut to the bus stop. The only thing I have bought (outside the food hall) for over a year was a down jacket. Yesterday I did a bit of a detour as I had seen a nice looking swing-style dress pop up at the top of a Mumsnet page but couldn't actually find it instore. I would also have liked some jeggings but got lost in the maze of random items. The shop is too busy, too messy and there is never an assistant around to ask for help.

The daily fail are normally all over MN, you’d think they’d pick this up and run an article on how pissed off people are at this.
Print something useful for a change.

I would like to stand up for the use of mustard yellow in clothes. My DD (25) bought a Zara trouser suit in mustard yellow last summer. I queried this. Seemed a bit too much of a single colour. She wore it to Royal Ascot no less (in the Royal Enclosure). That week the Sunday Times featured this trouser suit - if you buy one outfit etc it should be this one! So we do all need to remember that fashion isn’t just about round necked T shirts! There were loads of yellows around this summer in the magazine fashion pages where many younger people take inspiration. I have just seen fashion pages in another magazine full of leopard prints. Some people will hate it, others love it. The problem is that if you are going to do fast moving fashion, you have to move it.... fast! It cannot be hanging around unsold. Style like this will not appeal to someone who wants to wear the same knickers for 10 years. They, sadly, are probably not a customer any shop will spend much time worrying about (buy Sloggi by the way!).

My 22 year old has just been to a wedding. Zara trouser suit in deep green Chinese style fabric with clashing gold/cream striped shirt. Gold/green satin heels. Probably very few of us here would or even could wear that. It was amazing on her. You could never do that in M and S and most of us would run a mile from such a clash. However clashing prints are THE thing at the moment. Stripes and florals together. Mismatched florals. We don’t get it or wear it. Other shops get it and sell it - to younger very fashionable women who are not just looking for a t shirt with a round neck.

This is the huge dilemma M and S have. How do you manage a fast turnaround (and you must do that these days) without compromising your standards? Hot fashion has a short shelf life by definition so should M and S get out of this market and shrink to a small basics store? If they cannot get it right, they will have to because there is little future in going up market or selling basics to people who don’t shop again for 10 years.

As for the Winser dress - great, but it’s £99. You barely see a jersey dress in Marks for £50 so how many customers do they have who will pay £99 for a jersey dress? Few one would imagine! Decent design costs and the trend is cheap and cheerful in larger stores. It is not slowing down. Asos is definitely adding huge choice at reasonable prices for younger people and this is the trend, not mega stores that don’t stock fashionable clothes or indeed basics. How many over 50s shop with Asos? My DDs do all the time. They flick through their offerings on their phones and order. It is the way retail is going.

the question is really if anyone from the Head office Marketing department ever bothers to do an online search of any M & S threads, for, if they did they would know that MN and many other forums don't rate them.

I still cant understand why older undapper men think that they know how women dress. Yes they sell men's items, but then he should have an equally powerful head of women's clothes.

I don't want to dress like my secondary school teacher at the age of mid 30's. Equally I don't want to dress from Shite Philip Grun's shop.

Windsmoor doesn’t exist any more, think it went bust.

Bubbles I think you are wrong about how many will pay £99 for a jersey dress. Anyone who already shops at Hobbs, Phase Eight, John Lewis, House of Fraser are already paying at least that. If M&S make them in a decent style and good quality fabric we’ll buy it.

Very, very disillusioned with M&S.
Recently had to take back a men's merino v neck that has split at the v in the v neck and also down the black shoulder seam. Granted it was last season, but had not been worn much at all. Anyway, they refunded money so OH bought another one, only for it to do exactly the same thing[ only at the v, not down the shoulder]. I couldn't believe it. Took it back again, but have not purchased another.
Also i recently bought a bog standard pack of black ankle socks for myself. Before the first wash, the first pair I tried, just fluffed/bobbled and began to lose its colour. I intend to take these back too.
I just can't believe the poor quality of the clothing. If I wanted something that fell apart after one wear I would go to Primark.
Oh hang on, Primark's clothes do not fall apart after one wear.
How do M&S justify their prices??

Haven't read the full thread so apologies if I repeat anything already been said,
I have worked in various roles within the company for years (Don't flame me I'm no-one important) I therefore do have a soft spot for M&S and obviously don't want to lose my job, or see any of the other thousands of staff lose theirs either.

I certainly don't want to see another high street favourite close its doors. Or have Stuart Rose do a Philip Green as a pp said?
In fact I always fine the tone of some posters who say (and not all) "They deserve to go out of business, they're arrogant" a bit nasty really.

Believe me it's frustrating when you see the company getting it wrong as a customer, but as an employee too.

The only thing I will say is when I hear people say "We will pay more for good quality"
"I as a customer have money to spend"

That years ago I was heavily involved in a range called Best of British.
Good classic pieces (a couple of doozys to counter balance) with the design, fabric and production all in the UK, obviously with the price that needed to reflect this. We invited people in to view the process, there was lots of great feedback. I was there on the floor talking to customers and staff the day it launched.
Guess what? It was too expensive, we can get this cheaper at x y and z.
"Twenty Four pound for a bloody t shirt you are ripping your loyal customers OFF" one woman actually shouted at me.
It was soul destroying.

The majority of the customer base simply won't or don't want to pay for quality, no matter what they say.

And I am a die hard Primark fan but there clothes almost always fall apart after a couple of washes!
Do not buy the school t shirts from there awful.
Skin care excellent
Food incredible.
Cashmere - some great pieces this year.
Accessories are rather underestimated.
Totally get the frustration with sparks - but a lot of people dont know how, or wont use it properly. It certainly needs addressing.
And lack of popular sizes - so, so frustrating!

• Do not buy the schoolwear t shirts from M%S that should read not Primark

I didn't even manage one wear out of the last thing I bought at M&S. Got leggings, and the cotton was so cheap and thin that the plastic stick that attaches the tag left behind a big gaping hole in both pairs when I cut it off.

Returned, and probably won't bother much with M&S again.

I'm wearing an M&S dress new on today. The button loop at the back of the neck has broken already

Their food is great quality, "on trend", great variety, appealingly marketed to ll age groups

Why can't they do that with clothes?

I'd disagree about the school t shirts. I get my DD's polo t shirts & PE t shirts from M&S & they are fab.

My DD does like mud I guess, or maybe it's my washing methods (My Mum would say the latter )

In our house Ariel's the mud slayer, ketchup killer etc

Could I didn't start the thread to have a general pop at M&S although obviously they take on their own life once you hit 'submit'. I've actually defended them on previous threads at times. I started it because I was incensed at your chair's comments regarding older customers (over 55). I thought they were ignorant, arrogant and showed a very stereotypical view of how women my age like to dress.

I too have always had a soft spot for M&S, as did my mum. I wouldn't like to see any business with so many workers go under but frankly nor do I wish to pay my money to an organisation that shows so little regard for my custom.

I share your fears about whether enough people are really either willing or able to pay higher prices for well made clothes. We seem to be locked into a race to the bottom with no end in sight. Best of luck.

I did mention Best of British in an earlier post. I don’t think people would buy a jersey dress from M and S for £99 as Patrician suggests for the very reason mentioned by CouldWoulda; people won’t go to this price point because M and S are not Hobbs, Phase 8 etc. They are not in that market zone. They average shopper in M and S will not pay “premium” prices for a better quality fabric. This thread shows people want well priced basics and a jersey dress for £99 does not represent that in M and S but it would in Hobbs. It’s all about perception.

I bet it was disheartening re Best of British. However the problem may have been that not enough people care about the “British” bit. Customers are flocking to Aldi - it’s German. Zara is Spanish. H and M Swedish (I think). The British public doesn’t care where clothes are made, or who sells them, as long as they are “value” priced if that is what they think the store represents. If they cared about quality and ethics, Primark would be out of business, but it’s thriving. The stores that offer higher quality are the ones that are struggling

I think M and S will have to streamline their offerings but they need to rotate stock and keep moving with the trends. Having a single autumn/winter collection is no good now and vast shops with one brand are like dinosaurs! Not long for this earth. Remember BHS? C and A? The original Woolworths? It is so difficult to maintain footfall and sell in high quantity. The only time M and S is busy is at 20% off time and that’s fairly frequently now.

Could, that is fascinating about the Best of British range and actually confirms what I suspected.

Yes, the quality was fabulous and I loved that the gear was made in Britain from lovely fabrics.

Amongst other purchases from the range, I remember buying a beautiful windowpane check skirt in navy. Beautiful wool, from a Yorkshire mill. It was £65, I think, so manageable for women with a bit of money to spend on clothes but not so much for women under 30. The skirt was on the short side, so although I kept it I couldn’t really wear it easily for work, and I’m somebody who doesn’t mind showing some leg. I remember thinking, oh bloody hell M&S, why couldn’t you make it two inches longer because then you’d sell more to the women who can afford to buy it!

I loved the range though, and I was sorry when it vanished. I’m not surprised by your experiences, by the way; people say one thing about paying for quality but don’t necessarily practise what they preach!

I should add, I am a devoted Autograph customer and have had great things from M&S. I can afford to spend decent money on clothes, and Autograph often has some really good stuff: great leather skirts and leggings, a beautiful high necked sleeveless white cotton top, fab silk shirts, a great navy blazer, a black nylon weave jacket with silver hardware that could have been Belstaff, really good dark denim jeans. I could go on.

floisme
I'm sure you didn't start the thread with that intention don't worry I know how threads take a life of their own like you say.

I, along with others, many many others who work for the company raised eyebrows at the speech too believe me.

Remember he isn't speaking for the employees on the floor though, or behind the scenes. We are M&S not just Mr Rose the chair person.
The staff in store, and in H.O, long serving employees, the new employees. The people who pick the stock in the warehouses and deliver to stores.
We don't want it to be over, we don't want the company written off.
We challenge where we can.

It's so frustrating and disheartening when you see a thread signalling the company is over when you've slogged away delivering xmas and then he comes out with that gem ,

I just want them to get the basics right again, go back to the old motto of quality, value, service and trust.

.

Floisme the was aimed at Mr Roses speech not you btw.
And your sentiments were pretty much mine when I heard it too.

have not rtft but just wanted to say-
I went in my local oxfam today (I live in a small university town, so small branch, not especially affluent area)- and they had 2!!!!! of those pink dresses on the rack. They really felt vile. Surely their target audience remembers Crimpelene only too clearly.

I share your fears about whether enough people are really either willing or able to pay higher prices for well made clothes. We seem to be locked into a race to the bottom with no end in sight.

It's chicken and egg, as I am prepared to pay, but these more-expensive-yet-better-quality clothes literally don't exist in shops any more. Right now, I need a few plain longsleeve t-shirts. I want good quality winter-weight cotton which is FULLY OPAQUE, even in light colours. I'm prepared to pay around 30 pounds, up to 40 if it's an unusual colour I like. I think that is reasonable.

I've looked and looked, but it's not even possible to find plain tops at this price. I've been everywhere, from Bennetton, Uniqlo, Gap, John Lewis, Debenhams, H&M, M&S etc. But all the tops are much cheaper with quality to match. Seasalt has the quality I want, but only in stripes. I found these Hush tops which look decent quality, but they are a more casual style and not suitable for my work.

The t-shirt offerings at M&S this year are these

6.50!

So basically, Primark prices. Fine. But if you don't want Primark pricing (with it's environmental, ethical and quality compromises), there is nothing else available on the UK high street. Whether people are prepared to pay or not is moot, because the shops simply don't stock it.

It must be so frustrating Could when you work so hard and then your own chair goes and undermines it all. I really hope someone (and preferably a woman over 55) has kicked his arse long and hard.

I confess I knocked off the thread title in a high dudgeon and I could have worded it a lot better. I was talking about my own relationship with M&S and I was being a little histrionic - I'm sure I'll be back on here defending them again before long. It wasn't meant to signal the end of the company. Apart from anything else, I have many memories of shopping at M&S with my mum so I have a sentimental attachment to the place. Sorry.

Nevertheless I am still seriously pissed off with your chair. What an arse.

Whether people are prepared to pay or not is moot, because the shops simply don't stock it.
As you say, it's chicken and egg. The shops don't stock it because they don't believe enough people can or will pay and they may be right. We have depressed wages and sky high housing so I don't think it's necessarily a case of people not caring - a lot of people simply have bigger priorities.

The best long sleeved T shirts I've ever had were from Toast. £39 a pop - and that was about 3 years ago. It hurt. But they've worn and washed like a dream. Don't know if they'e stocking any at the moment.

Mismatched

Try Cos

(as an aside, I think Cos stuff is much nicer in the shop than it looks one the website. The main criterion for their selection of model seems to be an unusually long neck)

Landsend Ts are worth a look too.