OK. Define 'mutton'.

[AFierceBadRabbit]

Because I just don't get it, unless we're talking a 60 yr old wearing a mini bodycon dress with low neckline?
'Booty' shorts on the over 50's?

If you have the figure who really cares?

Isn't it just another way of looking down on someone - similar to having so-called 'chavvy' tastes?

Or is it a deeply ingrained fear of shocking someone from the front after tempting them from behind?

I think it is a derogatory term that I can't imagine ever using against myself. Why do women even engage in this?

So you have actually heard someone describe a man a "mutton dressed as lamb"?

Well I think what we saw from some of the posts on the previous page was that the phrase has nothing whatsoever to do with style advice and everything to do with fear and dislike.

There are regular threads about dressing when you're older - there's one going at the moment- which manage to be helpful and supportive without resorting to dead animal metaphors.

Wow, some people really HATE women who dress in a way that they personally don't approve of. Because clearly " trying to look younger " is In fact a crime. Although,oddly, not trying aka "not making an effort" is also a fashion crime.

Hmm. I wonder who benefits from this culture of strictly policing women's appearance ?

However old you are, whatever sex you are, whatever shape you are, people notice you and form a judgement about you within seconds.

A phrase is in use to describe someone dressing in an unflatteringly youthful way, but there are many other appearance crimes that attract derision.

I would suggest not caring what people think rather than trying to stop them thinking it.

I would rather they didn't think it, but obviously I can't stop them. I would like them to stop saying it, though. The implication that desirable women are very young, very innocent, very sweet, very "lamb like" is deeply misogynist and just downright unpleasant.

However old you are, whatever sex you are, whatever shape you are, people notice you
Let me stop you right there. When you're my age (60) people don't notice you unless you do something very spectacular indeed.

Which is why the premise behind this argument is such a joke.

When I am older than I am now, I will continue to dress exactly as I choose.

Some people might describe my style as eccentric. Some people might not.

I will display flesh if I want to.

The only person I have ever wanted to please by my choice in clothes is myself and I see no reason for that to change.

You could dress me in the most sought after designer clothes you can think of. You could tell me I looked incredible. If I felt good in them I would wear them ; if I didn't feel good in them I wouldn't wear them.

This thread needs this poem and its story - apologies if it has already been mentioned.

Personally, I don't really like purple all that much, but love the sentiment expressed

If you banned 'mutton dressed as lamb' people would still find a way to disapprove.

Her bingo wings are too flabby for that halter neck.

I'd rather not see her wrinkly thighs when she sits down in that short skirt.

I'd rather he put a shirt over that beer belly.

They will think it and they will say it to like-minded people.

Why are you talking about banning the phrase? People are discussing why they find it offensive. Surely you can see the difference?

By the way, I agree with you that many people do disapprove of older women who put their heads over the parapet in any way, be it dress or behaviour. I'm interested in why that disapproval exists.

Hyperbole, not serious of course.

A wider discussion about ageism would be interesting I agree.

I find it fascinating as to why women choose to use these derogatory terms about other women...if someone dares to feel good about herself and wear something 'young' she's 'mutton', if someone else dares to be a mum having a crap day and wearing jeans and a fleece she's 'mumsy' or the most dreaded 'frumpy' - why do we want to do other women down in this way? And I do think it's sexist because I just don't believe that men are subjected to the same level of scrutiny.

Kneesup - I don't agree with sneering and I don't care what anyone else wears but there are levels of appropriateness in our society, that's why a bra and fishnets would look out of place at the average wedding or full evening dress would look inappropriate for the school run. It's conditioning by the society we live in; in some tribes the women song cover their breasts or the men sob cover their penises, that's their societal conditioning and western clothing would look inappropriate to them, but we're all human. Where it goes wrong is not the noticing of inappropriate in our society but the sneering of it. Noticing and pointing it out is human nature.

*don't

And "frumpy" or "mumsy" is a way of describing certain types of clothing choices. We all have an impression of what those terms translate to in clothing choices because those terms exist in the English language and there's no getting away from it; we can't un-invent those terms.

Here's what interests me. To read some of the posters on here, you'd think they were being assaulted daily by the sight of older women in short, tight skirts.

The reality is that these posters walk past hundreds of us, every single day and don't even see us. My friends and I have a running joke about how far we can push it before anyone actually notices we're there.

I imagine Ice (1 or 2 pages back) was only looking at the woman in the waiting room because she initially mistook her for 20-something.

If I'm ever on the run from the law, I won't need a disguise because you won't see me. I'll be halfway to Acapulco and you'll still be guarding St Pancras.

I watch people a lot because it's how I get my ideas and the overwhelming majority of women I see over 50 have got unobtrusive down to an art form while some of them look as if they're actively hiding. And who can blame them when you see the judging and raw dislike on threads like this?

"If I'm ever on the run from the law, I won't need a disguise because you won't see me. I'll be halfway to Acapulco and you'll still be guarding St Pancras"

Except you wouldn't need to be on the run because nobody would think people like you and me might do anything as exciting as committing crimes. All we do is occasionally glance at a baby so people can come on here and complain about "elderly ladies tutting and judging and doing cats bum faces"

Yes, a wider conversation about ageism and how it affects women differently from men would be interesting.

This goes WAY beyond just matters of taste - I have never been a particularly fashion forward/radical dresser and I don't see that changing now that I am 50.
I DO like bright colours, a mild rock chick/boho kind of vibe, and I don't see that changing either

A man starts wearing a suit when they are young and will likely go to their grave wearing a suit - no judgment on age there.

I know I have only just turned 50, but I do not feel invisible yet. But then again I am quite gobby and will walk in to a pub, looking people in the eyes. I dunno, I suppose I am invisible to the 20something men (and women) but then again so are they to me

My glamorous MIL always says: "Better mutton dressed as lamb than mutton dressed as mutton."

Well I am in my 40s and last night I wore my high heeled over the knee boots and a plain black dress.
Perhaps it's because I was at a university event that nobody seemed to bat an eye.
I work out and am regularly told I don't look my age.
I don't give a flying fuck what strangers think of me.

I'll wear what I like when I like.
I also regularly wear the dreaded active wear because I regularly work out.
People need to stop using mysoginistic terms to describe women.
There are not the same sneering teens for men.
I have never heard anyone describe a man as mutton dressed as lamb or mumsey or frumpy or slutty.

It is an absolute fact that there are far far more derogatory terms used against women than men.
Slut
Whore
Ho
Bitch
Cow
Slag
I could go on.
My advice is get the guck on with your own life and stop criticising women.

Good advice but people will always have an opinion on what other people look like, wear, say or do.

It's a rare person who's never done that.

Luckily you don't give a flying fuck what people think of you, so it won't bother you whether they're admiring your style or laughing at you.

I'm not sure it's confined to women either, I've already mentioned Medallion Man and the Oldest Swinger in Town. Middle aged male friends fret about being accused of 'dad dancing' or whether buying a new car makes them a 'mid life crisis man'.

I completely agree about the horrible sexualised terms.

People judge, not caring is the trick I think.

Of course people will always have opinions but do you never question your own opinions sometimes? Is it not a good thing to do so, even on Style and Beauty on a Sunday morning?

Let's look at some of the phrases used on this thread:
'Gives me the creeps..'
'You cringe ...'
'You wince....'
'Makes me want to stare open mouthed...'
'A bit sad...' (at least twice)
'I'd rather not see...'

I could go on. Not only are these comments a million miles away from style advice, they're not even primarily about the women concerned. They're all about the poster's own feelings.

If the way some of us dress makes us feel this uncomfortable then let's ask ourselves what's going on. But let's first point the finger where it should be pointed - not at the women concerned but at our own discomfort and hangups.

But that's the point isnt it, dad dancing Is a term used for bad dancers.
As for cars I think people judge more on your driving ability and some drivers are very inconsiderate.
I do judge bad drivers but that has nothing to do with the drivers personal appearance. Also I tend to give drivers the benefit of the doubt unless they are inconsiderate such as taking up 2 parking sports. This is irrelevant of gender though.

We don't have a term lets say twat, that universally means any male wearing jeans and a t shirt over the age of 40.
We don't have s universal Lang term for males who are going bald but don't shave their heads.
We don't have a phrase for out of shape men who dare to wear s uni get other than full body armour.
There isn't even a derogatory