Ditch The Foundation, Embrace Some Fantastic Skincare Instead!

[botemp]

Thread 1

Thread 2

Thread 3

Thread 4

For those who are taking a peek and wondering whether thread 1,2, 3, and 4 are worth reading, we mostly discuss a bit of advanced skincare here with a perspective of seeking out the right ingredients for our particular needs. Distinguishing the acid toners from the actives whilst avoiding the truly unimpressive and harmful ingredients with a hope to achieve a bit of anti-ageing, alleviate irritation and sensitivities with some idle chat in between. Deviations on this thread are mostly my fault.

If you're in need of some advice coming to grips with your skincare routine please don't hesitate to ask, we don't bite, only occasionally sting with a bit of Biologique Recherche P50 now and then . Just make sure to state clearly what your concerns and needs are in as much detail as possible, skincare is highly individual and a random recommendation for a 'good' product will be completely different from one person to the next.

Make sure you've read the earlier threads (or at the very least the first one) so we're not being asked to answer to previously raised questions. It takes a lot of time and effort to answer these queries and often the answers can be found in previous threads, but if you still have questions relating specifically to you, use the following form to make life easier on us. We generally answer one or to two people a day on a first come first served basis. Not everyone will have answers and sometimes we can't answer you at all. We're only a bunch of amateurs that can respond by suggesting what we would do in your place, for any severe conditions please seek out professional help.

Skin type:

Approx age (range):

Primary skin concern:

Routine :

AM :

PM :

Makeup : eg. no/light coverage/medium coverage/heavy coverage

Occasional treatments:

Things I've tried in the past with disastrous results:

Things that are really working well for me now:

Any dietary/health concerns/pregnant:

What I'm willing to spend on a single skincare item: eg. >£10, £10-20, £20-50, £50-100, no limits.

I specifically [want help with/am looking for a product to/am curious about trying]:

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Ahem, and finally a little note on spending. I'm well aware these threads cause many to reach for their wallets and spend with wild abandon. There can sometimes be a bit of a frenzy surrounding the excitement around a newly discovered product or on the back of great improvements when someone reports back. This is all great, it doesn't however, mean everything that's a sudden miracle for one will be it for you. Usually, it's a light bulb moment for connecting the right skincare ingredient with an individual experiencing a specific problem. Take your time to mull over decisions and question whether it's right for you too. Skincare is highly individual, it's a slow game that should cost mostly in patience, input, education, and perseverance. Please don't make it cost you financially needlessly either.

@LazySusan11, I’m still not sure what your skin type is but I’m assuming dry to very dry. You’ve naturally gravitated to the more high-end organic brands so I do think HA is probably not your best friend (as these rarely feature it and if they do never the low molecular weight stuff). I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them per se and if you’re happy to spend that kind of money but I wouldn’t be too reliant on them for active skincare.

You’ve got a whole host of the more popular acids and use them quite frequently, the only thing you haven’t tried is the Biologique Recherche P50 which would be a step up from the Pixi and Good Genes (both at a concentration of 5% and a variable pH, the Pixi is quite high near a pH4 iirc therefore only very mildly/slowly exfoliating, the GG is pH2 or 2.5 which boosts its efficacy but I find it a bit false economy, BR P50 lotions are in the 9.3-12.85% range at a consistent low pH of 2.5-3.0). I’d start with P50W (travel size as everyone does) and move to the PIGM version or the normal full strength version if that's what you're orientating towards.

However, I’m not sure how high you’ve set your goals and whether your acne scarring is pigmentation or deep pitted scars. If it’s pigmentation than my answer is usually Vit C so it’s worth looking into the Skinceuticals one (or one of its many dupes) but that has a bit of Sodium Hyaluronate as its final ingredient, NIOD ELAN may then be worth looking into.

It’s also absolutely of importance that you wear sunscreen! You’re using so many exfoliating products (probably too many, it’s much more sensible to have one strong one like P50 that you use consistently than your current pick and mix approach) your skin hardly has time to catch up with its recovery only then to face the assault of UVA (which is the same year round, still damaging just not the thing that burns your skin) and UVB rays. SPF30 in winter and SPF50 in summer, but I’d be inclined to say SPF50 year round for you considering the amount of AHA products you’re exposing it to. And I’m talking a standalone SPF here, not in moisturiser, not in makeup. You really need the best protection you can get, it will also help with scars healing quicker post blemishes.

Finally, if it’s more pitted scars and/or longer standing acne scars I’d personally be looking into laser treatments. I know there’s a few well-renowned specialists in London and could look up the specific names if wanted (and I’d definitely be seeking out the best I could afford rather than a local beautician), if they have a variation of machines they can tackle the red veins too and beyond that they’re quite beneficial for anti-ageing if pricey, there’s also at home devices but I don’t think they’d tackle both as effectively in one machine.

I’ve mentioned it on here before, I don’t have hormonal acne but do have hormonal issues and Spearmint has been really helpful with that and it is highly recced (it’s based on a sample of small scientific studies) even by some dermatologists to help minimise the impact of hormonal acne (though tackling the sweet tooth will help too). It’s two cups of spearmint a day and you need spearmint not any old mint and not a mix with it in it.

@SomewhereNow, you sound very green and confused to this all so I’m pulling out an old overview so you can at least get an understanding of the basics.

The Basics of an Active Routine

So before we get to the basics of a skincare routine, drink plenty of water (especially if you drink a lot of caffeinated drinks, they're only making you more dehydrated). Avoid sugar, alcohol, cigarettes, and everything else you know is shit for you.

The basic routine is usually something along these lines,

double cleansing (in the evening, single cleanse/wash in the morning)

acid toning (optional)

serum/oil (optional)

moisturiser

SPF (daytime only).

First Cleanse: You want an oil based cleanser (not to be confused with the 'natural' oil cleansing method/OCM) to cut through make-up and SPF which you remove with a warm flannel (despite the method being called 'hot' cloth cleansing, hot water is shit for your skin) or a muslin. Use a clean flannel/muslin each day. For mornings (or days when you don't wear make-up and/or SPF) skip this step.

Second Cleanse: The first cleanse was to remove all make-up and SPF, the second is to clean the actual skin and any residue. Gentle is what you want here, a milk or cream cleanser. Ignore instructions of removing with cotton pads etc. Simply apply to dry skin and take off with warm flannel/muslin from above.

Acid toning: The quickest way to kick start your skin again, caution is warranted. Slow and steady is the way to go here, introducing it once or twice a week and building it up to a point that feels comfortable for your skin which can be anything from twice a day to once a week/fortnight. AHA helps break down dead skin cells and encourages cell turnover, revealing more 'youthful' and radiant skin. BHA works deeper down as it is oil soluble and is good for cleaning out pores and with spots. There are more types of acids and both AHA and BHA are far more complex than described but this is their basic setting. I would only suggest incorporating acids into your routine when you have your basic setup of cleanser - (serum) - moisturiser - SPF in place. If you can't commit to daily SPF and regular top ups during the day in the height of summer do not bother with acid toning, it makes the skin photosensitive, you will only damage and worsen it if not diligent with SPF post acid toning.

Serum: A concentrated and light weight formulation that penetrates skin more effectively than moisturiser. This is where you address your specific skincare needs, hydration, acne, sensitivity, anti-ageing, etc. Alternatively an oil can be used in this stage following it with or without moisturiser depending on need. The AM routine usually focuses on protective/restorative ingredients whilst the PM will push to stimulate collagen and elastin production, and skin renewal.

Moisturiser: Seals everything in and hydrates, for whatever reason we're still all stuck on the moisturiser being the most important and life changing product in your skincare routine. It's not. Probably leftover marketing from the anti-ageing overpriced cream era, moisturisers aren't going to do much on their own. Spend your money on serums and get a no frills workhorse.

A separate SPF: Beyond its necessity for use with acid toning, it is the most effective anti-ageing product (as well as skin cancer deterrent) as it blocks damaging sun rays from your skin. SPF30 is advised as a minimum year round, reach for SPF50 in the summer, especially if acid toning. Reapply every two hours when you are in the sun for prolonged periods of time.

So in order of trialling when starting from scratch: Cleansers first (easy to see whether you can get on with them or not quite quickly within a few days). Then introduce moisturiser, then SPF, then serum, then contemplate acid toning. Aside from a cleanser I usually wait 2-3 weeks before introducing a new product and it takes about 6 weeks to honestly assess whether a product is working for you.

Stop using any products that cause irritation, skin does not get used to things. An exception can be made for acid toning where some purging may occur but should not persist beyond the first few uses.

Also read the “Where to start” bit up until the routine on my advice to Gwenhwyfar at Sun 29-Jan-17 21:16:23 (page 2 or 3).

My suggestion for you in terms of routine are as follows:

AM

Freshen up with cream cleanser (currently Nivea), ← use up then switch to La Roche Posay Toleriane Dermo Cleanser

Nip & Fab pads a couple of times a week ← Definitely don’t use acid toners in the AM if you’re not using an SPF. It’s pretty much skincare sin number one, AM routines tend to be about protecting and helping skin restore from any stress you may subject your skin to with actives, acids, etc. the night before. I’m assuming you’re using the glycolic fix pads? For your concerns a BHA is better suited. Try the Paula’s Choice 2% Skin Perfecting Liquid (get the travel size initially) but I wouldn’t start buying this until you have your SPF in place.

Nip & Fab serum followed by I have no clue which Serum this is but I’m not impressed by the entire line and you’re in need of something rehydrating. Look into The Ordinary Buffet or Matrixyl instead. The Superdrug Simply Hydrating Serum may also be a good fit, possibly get this for the AM and one of TO for the PM.

Eucerin 5% urea to try and combat the flakiness ← If this is working for you stick with it but something with better hydrating properties may suit you better (Urea tackles dryness - lack of oil- rather than dehydration - lack of water). Face Theory is worth a look, Malin Goetz Vitamin E moisturiser (the one without SPF) is also very comfy and hydrating and liked by various skin types.

SPF - I’d go with either the Biore Watery Essence but be mindful that it may be drying, alternatively try the La Roche Posay Anthelios Fluid SPF50

PM

Cream cleanser or micellar water to remove make-up then Sanctuary Oil Cleanser with muslin cloth followed by ←- So the order is off here. Use the micellar for eye makeup removal only, then oil cleanser (though this usually makes the micellar obsolete unless you wear very heavy eye makeup), then a cream cleanser like LRP TD from the AM.

Acid tone, if you acid tone - See above about suggestion. I do think you’d probably benefit from an AHA too but you really need to phase in your products slowly and I wouldn’t consider AHA top priority.

Serum- Use the same hydrating serum or see the suggestion for alternating products made there. I know you’ve mentioned being interested in Retinol but like AHA I’d leave this until the routine is settled and working well for you. Then look into the 2% Retinoid Complex from The Ordinary.

Moisturiser - I think you’d really benefit from several hydrating layers in both routines to address the dehydration the seal it all in with oil.

Sanctuary Facial Oil

Also, ditch the scrubs, they’re pure evil and don’t promote good skin health. This is why you want chemical exfoliators, like AHA and BHA, in your routine, to gently exfoliate without damaging and aggravating the skin. Long term consider incorporating these actives into your routine for glow and skin tone: Retinol, Vitamin C, Niacinamide.

@vaz119, wrt to pricey products that you use sparingly. I’m not a fan of buying something you can’t afford to use consistently. I also can’t really see ingredient wise what would warrant that price so it must be in the formulation but having a great formulation you don’t use consistently feels very much like a waste. I think you would probably respond well to the Benton Snail Bee High Content Essence. I can’t say it’ll perform the same as the Chantecaille but it’s very soothing and anti-inflammatory aiding in restoring your skin. Some say snail is also very good for acne scarring but I think that’s more personal anecdotes than documented since not all snail slime is created equal so it’s hard to truly verify. I don’t really know which CosRx product you had in mind though.

Factor 30 on holiday is way too little (I’m assuming somewhere hot and sunny). A broad spectrum SPF50 is really what you need and you need some here everyday too. I’d look at the Shiseido Senka Mineral Water UV Essence SPF50, LRP Anthelios Fluid SPF50 or the Kiehl’s Ultra-Light Daily UV-Defense SPF50. On holiday top up every 2 hrs of sun exposure and get a proper waterproof one if heading to a beach.

Vit C and Nia are discouraged to be used together, usually it isn’t an issue and can cause some mild flushing which is only briefly unpleasant but TO Vit C and TO Nia are really a bad partnership in the same routine therefore TO advice strongly against is. Beyond that there’s little that doesn’t work together, stronger acids (usually AHA) shouldn’t be used with higher strength retinoids but the products usually will indicate as much. In terms of order when layering serums, use the strongest active first (usually Retinol) then follow with the supporting cast (like HA, etc.)

I think in may be worth looking into more effective acids for you though. The Bravura and Aveda are very mild and more like pH adjusters in that sense than true exfoliating acids.

lubeybooby ur username has really tickled me sorry I'm so immature

One leg done! About 26 min...

lubey with regards the itching that's happening with your rosacea, do you get flaking too? Have you had either diagnosed by GP?
I ask as Seborrhoeic Dermatitis can accompany rosacea and I've had both, both now finally well under control, so am happy to share what's worked/not worked. I wrote a long rambling post up thread about rosacea by itself, and will add the seb derm stuff if appropriate.

yongnian I get major flaking if it's been recently irritated by something and I don't moisturize intensively in time (shampoo accidentally running down my face did this once so am v careful now)

I think my answer is probably yes though - at least sometimes anyway

mintmagnumm

Can I just have a mini rant. I posted before about the lovely Surratt lipsliques. Lovely. £22 in December. Now £32!!! How's that for a whopping price hike! A little bit annoyed

@lubeybooby , first of all definitely seek out a GP for the rosacea. For products I’d recommend the following:

Cleanser- La Roche Posay Toleriane Dermo Cleanser, I recommend it on here quite a lot since it is so universally inoffensive. Try to keep your head out of the shower, it sounds harder than it is but really do your cleansing at the sink with tepid water. Don’t rub to much, get a soft (damp) flannel to remove the cleanser with.

Water spray- either the La Roche Posay Thermal Water or Avene Thermal Water, just to take the harshness of tap water away.

Serum- I’d look to getting some samples of Paula’s Choice Calm Redness Relief Repairing Serum (you can order multiple samples of the same product).

Don’t know how smart it is to introduce two products at the same time but may be sensible to buy when purchasing the samples of above and keeping back till later, the Paula’s Choice Calm Redness Relief 1% BHA Lotion Exfoliant, you'd use this after cleansing. BHA has some great properties for rosacea and sensitivity issues as well. Also tackles pore size. My only qualm with this product is that it’s rather siliconey but it’s the safest bet from the BHA offerings. The CosRx BHA may also work for you but is more hassle to sample, though I’m sure someone on here will offer you a decant if I ask nicely .

Moisturiser- I’d go with the Eucerin UltraSENSITIVE Soothing Care for Dry skin.

Oil- Sea buckthorn is an old remedy for rosacea but I wouldn't go dabbling in oils if I were you, opting for a minimally irritating moisturiser instead.

Above is all formulated for hypersensitive skin with minimal ingredients. Normally I’d bang on about double cleansing and SPF but lets just get you some basic skincare that doesn’t make you absolutely miserable and really crack on with seeing a GP and push for a derm referral if possible.

oops.. sorry to yongian again, no nothing officially diagnosed. I've muddled along in my own world just thinking I have awkward dry skin until recently coming to my senses and realising it's more than that and wanting to look after it properly and know what the best products are

thank you so much botemp

I appreciate somewhere to start so much

will definitely get to doc and do some skincare shopping with the things you've mentioned

Dulci, I know the blushes went up from £27/24 to £30! Prices on Net-A-Porter are still the old ones though , if it wasn't for their pesky shipping costs...

26 minutes per leg . Bloody hell, must crack on!

How many of us have used the Potion9 at some point then? Someone else not me should really start a thread about forgotten products that we really shouldn't have forgotten about.

It's shocking really. The lipsliques are very nice, but they were especially nice because they were only (only!) £22. Definitely takes the sparkle off a bit doesn't it. Ridiculous that even with delivery, its now cheaper to buy from NAP than in person

Done! Took me about 50 min for both legs, bikini and armpits.

Was pretty painless besides in a couple of places where I think there were tiny hairs left.
What I found annoying is there were places where the big window sometimes did not come in full contact with the skin (front and very bottom of shins) and then the light did not come on, so had to wait and try again and eventually repeat these places with the smaller window just in case.

All is all it was super easy so I'm hopeful about long term results, cause if my legs can be hair free by doing this every 8 weeks or so it would be great!!

lubeybooby, I came here looking for advice with the same kind of rosacea (redness but not acne, although I don't really have flakiness) and was persuaded by the wise ones here to go the GP after years of putting it off. Mine was really sympathetic and practical (though sadly I know that's not been everyone's experience ) and it was definitely a good move for me.

I started using the La Roche Posay Toleriane Dermo Cleanser bo recommends above and that's made a difference, as has simplifying my routine and making it consistent. One of the problems I had was that the levels of redness would vary unpredictably, which is unsurprising in retrospect as I was chucking a lot at it. Now that my routine is simple and consistent I can assess the triggers properly and see what effect new products have. Kind of patting/pressing my face with the flannel instead of really rubbing it has helped, as has avoiding extremes of temperature as far as possible and - sadly - red wine.

I have the LRP Rosaliac you linked to upthread - bought before I joined here - and am using it up because it doesn't aggravate my skin, but I can't say it does anything amazing for it either. It's about to run out and once it does I'll be looking at other options.

Basically this thread has sorted me out

Also a belated thanks to Pupsie and cad who got back to me on my question about azelaic acid + rosacea on the last thread, I've been away and just catching up.

I'm done too well I missed out the bikini line, didn't shave as properly as I though

I had to push quite hard to make contact which was annoying initially and the curvy areas definitely require a bit of know-how or someone else to just do it but it became manageable soon enough. I'm sure I've missed spots.

Also repeated the DIY hair mask tonight, applying it on freshly shampooed hair this time which made it absorb much more of it. Will have to see how it dries up this time, am very tempted to throw a blow dryer at it.

It must be the GBP exchange on top of the usual yearly price increases Dulci. I know a lot of high end handbags have suddenly gone up with hundreds of ££ recently. Ehm, yeah, the B-word .

Dulci - like bo said I would go to the Negen Straatjes (nine little streets). These are indeed nine little and picturesque streets that intercept the long beautiful canals on the west of the center. Just walking there and along those main canals is gorgeous. Look out for a shop called Van Ravenstein for slightly more special designer stuff. Or slightly more towards the center itself on Keizersgracht a store called YDU, with stuff by Dutch designers (not all of them my taste, but look for stuff by a label called By Brown).
Just off the Princengracht close to Anne Frank house there is another very nice street called Westerstraat which has an amazing design and furniture shop called Moooi (owned by Marcel Wanders, a designer who I adore). Again, all that little area is lovely and at the top of the street there is a church and square (Noordermarkt) with very cute cafes.

Alternatively you could go to the Museum of Bags and Purses, which is an amazing experience and also has a cute cafe.
www.tassenmuseum.nl

Awe, love it when you all come back and tell us how this thread has helped improve your routines and support each other too .

mintleaves thanks that gives me some hope

red wine is an arse of a thing for me too (also read yongians post about it upthread) and I'll give non oaked ones a go maybe...

I don't really drink much anyway but when I do it tends to be a nice red wine!

I have had a 23andme genetic testing thing done (unrelated) apparently that hot flush reaction to booze can be genetic and that is one of the genes they test for... but thinking about it, it really doesn't happen to me with any other booze. Only red wine

Wow thank you for taking the time to write such a helpful post botemp, loads there to get my head round! Thanks also EnidButton - sounds as though we may have issues in common .

Well done bo! Yeah I also thought with a bit of experience one gets those tricky places more easily and saves time. I'm also sure I missed places, though I tried to overlap as much as I could.

Let me know about the hair mask. I'm very curious how you get on this time.

By the way I tried TO Vit C in the PM and it does not work on the days I apply retinol. My face got very red and my chin was a tiny bit blotchy the next day. Doing it in the morning again and trying not to rub

And now I can go and wallow in my annoying head cold

Same lubeybooby - I don't drink frequently - but when I do, it's red wine, because I like it, though of course I should know better. It goes straight to my cheeks

Great! Ty aurora for that. I've just taken a look and the place I'm staying is in that area so happily it looks to be on my doorstep. The museum sounds fun too - ty!