Yet More Fantastic Skincare and Where To Find It

[botemp]

Thread 1

Thread 2

Thread 3

For those who are taking a peek and wondering whether thread 1,2, and 3 are worth reading, we mostly discuss a bit of advanced skincare here with a perspective of seeking out the right ingredients for our particular needs. Distinguishing the acid toners from the actives whilst avoiding the truly unimpressive and harmful ingredients with a hope to achieve a bit of anti-ageing, alleviate irritation and sensitivities with some idle chat in between. Deviations on this thread are mostly my fault.

This January we're doing some added extra chitchat about food and diet and reducing or eliminating sugar for both overall and skin health. Recipe sharing encouraged.

If you're in need of some advice coming to grips with your skincare routine please don't hesitate to ask, we don't bite, only occasionally sting with a bit of Biologique Recherche P50 now and then . Just make sure to state clearly what your concerns and needs are in as much detail as possible, skincare is highly individual and a random recommendation for a 'good' product will be completely different from one person to the next.

If you want help, please do read through the previous threads first. It takes a lot of time and effort to answer these queries and often the answers can be found in previous threads, but if you still have questions use the following form to make life easier on us. We generally answer one or to two people a day on a first come first served basis. Not everyone will have answers and sometimes we can't answer you at all. We're only a bunch of amateurs that can respond by suggesting what we would do in your place, for any severe conditions please seek out professional help.

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Skin type:

Approx age (range):

Primary skin concern:

Routine :

AM :

PM :

Makeup : eg. no/light coverage/medium coverage/heavy coverage

Occasional treatments:

Things I've tried in the past with disastrous results:

Things that are really working well for me now:

Any dietary/health concerns/pregnant:

What I'm willing to spend on a single skincare item: eg. >£10, £10-20, £20-50, £50-100, no limits.

I specifically [want help with/am looking for a product to/am curious about trying]:

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Ahem, and finally a little note on spending. I'm well aware these threads cause many to reach for their wallets and spend with wild abandon. There can sometimes be a bit of a frenzy surrounding the excitement around a newly discovered product or on the back of great improvements when someone reports back. This is all great, it doesn't however, mean everything that's a sudden miracle for one will be it for you. Usually, it's a light bulb moment for connecting the right skincare ingredient with an individual experiencing a specific problem. Take your time to mull over decisions and question whether it's right for you too. Skincare is highly individual, it's a slow game that should cost mostly in patience, input, education, and perseverance. Please don't make it cost you financially needlessly either.

Sorry enid I had missed that vital point!

Hollin where do you get Benzoyl Peroxide from? My chin and jaw only seems to be clear for one week each cycle and last night my spots woke me up numerous times as they were painful to lie on (which is a first!)

Is there any point in going to the GP with hormonal spots? I'm not interested in birth control as an option.

Great tips Aurora and Enid! I'm part way through the Sarah Wilson I Quit Sugar book and am planning my approach. I'm feeling hopeful that getting rid of sugar will also rid my spots. I'm generally a very healthy eater and cook almost everything from scratch so I'm halfway there but since becoming a SAHM I've become a bit of a sugar fiend!

I got this one
https://www.weldricks.co.uk/products/acnecide-topical-aqueous-gel-30g

Yes, I'm also a believer in full fat dairy (in moderation, of course), and good plant based fats like avocado (one of my fav foods), nuts etc.

The reason it's better to drink still water rather than carbonated is mainly the way the body absorbs it in respect to hydrating the body. "Only water is water", as I was once told. Still... if you are trying to kick a coke habit, keep on drinking the carbonated water, just try to reduce it after a while, to a glass or so a day.

I'm not allowed Xylitol, by the way. I'm only allowed 100% fruit based sugar, like date sugar.

Yesterday I made hot chocolate with date syrup. Kid asked for hot chocolate, so I thought - hmmm, lets see how this tastes with date syrup. So I used goat milk, pure cocoa powder and about 2 tsp date sugar. I'm not a huge fan of hot chocolate, but it's good to know that even for that there is a "sugar-free" option!

Some more interesting and motivating links -

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/20/sugar-deadly-obesity-epidemic

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/05/is-sugar-worlds-most-popular-drug

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/04/sugar-alcohol-child-breakfast-diabetes-liver-disease-corporate

(our dentist absolutely forbids morning "cereals"!)

I've used benzoyl peroxide before, it's heavy stuff but it does work. It does really dry your skin out so its weighing up the pros and cons of it. It bleaches the shit out of everything as well. Old pillows and pyjamas!

I've also used hormonal contraception before, when I was younger, to try and chill out my spots and it did work a bit, but it made me ravenous for cakes and very emotionally unstable. So not worth the marginally better skin for me.

What causes the hormonal spots? I know I've read the oil production in your skin increases, but I've never noticed my skin feelin oilier at certain points in my cycle. When I was pregnant my spots were worse than they've ever been it was awful. Really painful, cyst-like buggers, all over my face.

My hormonal spots aren't that bad at all now, but I am due on in the next week or so and I've got a few small ones on my chin and jaw.

Forgot to say another good preemptive strategy is preparing a big drink bottle with a couple of slices of lemon in the morning. So not only it's there for you to drink all the time, but it's very refreshing (at least I find it so ) and it kind of cuts through some of the craving.

Thanks Hollin. My skin was the same whilst pregnant too Scooby, absolutely hideous throughout. Not even a hint of this so called pregnancy glow

Yep I have bleach stains on towels! Tiny amount and moisturise on top as well
I tend to use it if skin is v bad then stop when it's improved

I'd be wary of Xylitol, it's a by-product of birch or pine production in Finland which is (one of) their largest exports so there's a lot of money at play in it, and is heavily backed by the Finnish government. In Finnish primary schools they have giant dispensers of xylitol in every classroom that all children basically 'must' eat/chew after lunch or snacks because it inhibits cavities. It all sounds great and promising but taking in consideration the economic and political forces behind it I'd reserve judgement on it, to me it's very reminiscent of the High Fructose Corn Syrup lobby that operated in a similar manner (though, obvs have a bit more faith in the Finnish govt. than the US).

Also, if you're trying to wean yourself off sugar I really do believe cold turkey is better than gradually decreasing as you're never addressing the physio- and psychological dependency on it. I'm not a fan of detoxes, extreme diets, etc. but find with sugar it's really the best to do a 'reset' of sorts. I did two weeks, cutting it all out (and you naturally cut out processed foods and simple carbs in the process). That included cutting out fruit (replacing it with vegetable juice, did allow for lemon juice to prevent oxidation) and not using any sugar substitutes to really reset your palette. After the two weeks I gently reintroduced fruit again, I still sort of go by 2 pieces a day (3 max), favouring the ones with a lower GI impact, therefore avoiding exotic fruits like mango, pineapple, bananas. Also, tend to go with the seasons for fruit and veg intake (so exotic fruits sometimes eaten in height of summer). I also avoided anything containing yeast, either replacing it with sourdough version or avoiding it all together. Slowly reintroduced that too but relying mostly on sourdough.

Lego, 'white stuff' to me is anything refined that removes the nutritional aspects to ease digestion. So white refined flour, white (polished) rice, etc. I think as long as you treat potatoes as a vegetable incidentally (not as a meal filler/staple) it isn't a huge issue and cooking it in certain ways it's actually a very good source of Vitamin C. I think there's also exception made to Italian (artisanal) produced pasta, they have a surprisingly low GI (dependant on shape, strangely enough), when I do use white flour it's always stoneground as it retains more of its nutritional value. It's not strictly 'white stuff' in my book but it's not strictly wholemeal either. I only tend to use a small amount usually if a 100% wholemeal version would make it too heavy.

I'm not the biggest fan of supplements if you're not deficient and can get those things from a balanced diet, I do think that if you're in need of a little support to fight the cravings, that 7 day sugar detox kit from Victoria Health probably is worth trying.

Definitely agree with Enid and Aurora that food is meant to be enjoyed and where necessary in moderation. Cutting out sugar is really a lifestyle change and should not be a limitation of enjoyment as it will never be sustainable. You need to find a way to make it work for you, if that means baking with sugar like products go for it. If it means holding on to a few natural sweeteners like maple syrup or honey do that if it means it's sustainable for you. Some version of low sugar over a long period of sustained time will always be better than yoyoing between no sugar and high sugar.

I've tried a sheetmask from Klairs, Mint, it left me very meh and a lot of their sensitive skin stuff has fragrance/perfume in it.

Salty, with the extra info we're definitely going to need to look at some good outdoor SPFs for you. I was going to suggest the Bioderma Photoderm Max SPF 50+ to try first which is in a spray (not the biggest fan of that) on the back of its very high PPD rating (protection against UVA rays as opposed to SPF which references the protection against UVB) but I see they've released a new version that is non-greasy/waterlight texture but will have to look up the specifics of it first. Think it may not be of use during exercise but will be of use for during the thing you shared with me via PM.

Thanks botemp for your recommendations. I've placed an order for the TO products and will pick up the LRP cleanser next time I'm in a large Boots.

Just to make sure I've understood correctly, once I've introduced the new serums (I'll wait two weeks or so between each one), my routine would look something like this?

AM:
LRP Toleraine cleanser
TO Matrixyl (perhaps alternating with Superdrug serum)
TO Vit C 23%
Day cream
SPF 50 from Spring onwards (do you have any recommendations that don't cause eyes to stream?)

PM:

Double cleanse
Liquid Gold ( 2ish times a week, being careful not to over-exfoliate)
TO Matrixyl
TO Retinoid 2% (2-3 times a week)
Night cream

Thank you again for your help!

Wow didn't know about the Xylitol/ Finnish government connection... but yeah it reminds of the US corn syrup ehmmm policy

Also agree with you about 100% whole wheat. I was personally told not to bake like that as it's too heavy.

I made the pasta potato soup yesterday and it's soooo yummy! My mistake was that I made it very quickly in the morning and by dinner time the pasta was a bit too soft and slightly broken (didn't affect the taste though). So if you make it in advance leave out the pasta and cheese and add it when you are warming the soup up before you eat.
I used lactose free mozzarella because of the kids.
It's very filling by the way. I only ate one small bowl... though DS1 ate three, which means my plan to serve it today as well has backfired

Thanks for that, botemp. I thought that might be the case, relieved I can still have potatoes (I will probably stick to celeriac chips though as I love them). And Mostly Vegetable Mash (even my DH & DD like it).

Can't get any Weleda products in town, at all. Most disappointed, I thought I might at least get the nappy cream, but no. Best get an order placed then, I should get some sunscreen at the same time... the hardship of it all (do you suppose MNHQ have forgotten about the smilies?)

Has anyone been doing that Japanese facial massage? Has anyone found a diagram they can link to, to help with remembering the sequence of movements?

Lego easypharmacie have very good prices for Weleda, so if you can ehmmm find enough stuff to offset the shipping costs

Frightful, provided PM = double cleanse and then either:

LG - end of routine
or Matrixyl-Retinoid-Night Cream - end of routine

then it should all be in order, you can play around with the placement with Vit C in the AM. I use it traditionally straight after cleansing but since TO is an anhydrous solution it has more versatility but the texture may give preference to first or second step after cleansing.

As for SPF 50, have you tried the French pharmacy offerings in the past? The Japanese are good too, the one I'm currently testing should be a good one for most but I do find due to the high alcohol content that can briefly annoy the eyes (although I've been testing it in the most annoying way possible, for testing purposes).

HecMacWay, I think TO stuff is worth trying just for the price level. I'm not 100% sold on the long-lasting effects of peptides but they certainly do the job in the short term, so Buffet or Matrixyl are definitely worth looking into and I think they fit well into AB routines. The texture is a challenging one but I do think TO Vit C 23% is worth trying, if you can live with it, it makes for a good affordable Vit C. As for lotion, have you considered the CosRx oil free one with birch sap?

Indeed, Aurora, a lot of us actually have issues digesting 100% wholegrain foods, that's another reason why I prefer foods that have been either slowly fermented or take very long to prepare as all the resting time helps break down a lot of hard to digest nutrients in a helpful way, unlike say a factory loaf with fast acting yeast.

Weleda is pretty cheap on easyparapharmacie, Lego, as are all the sunscreens, LRP Toleriane Dermo is on offer for a two pack of 400ml I believe. Attached is the pic from the Chizu Saeki technique, will have to look up the instructions later but it's mostly acupressure combined with light sweeping motions. It's not the intense circular rubbing you see a lot in western style massages, it shouldn't take more than a minute or two (recently been reading that extensive massages actually cause capillary damage, so those with rosacea definitely stay gentle and short with it).

x-post with Aurora

*emojis not emohis , I've cursed them now, haven't I? Please don't take them away, MNHQ

Lego sugar, white rice, white pasta and white bread basically. I also limit potatoes because they give me stomach pain but not sure that's really necessary for most people. Replace with whole grain, wholemeal, whole wheat and things like rye. You can get whole wheat pasta. My body hates pasta full stop unfortunately, just see what works for you. Toasted rye bread with nut butter is gorgeous. Sounds like you do all that anyway.

The book Fizzy is reading has a step by step plan for completely cutting out sugar like bo does. So no fruit at first and so on. It's a really good book for learning how sugar work etc. www.amazon.co.uk/Quit-Sugar-Complete-Program-Cookbook/dp/1447264282 It's towards the more extreme end I suppose.

This is excellent for adding to Greek yogurt with berries or to milk to make milkshakes. Haven't tried it as an actual hot chocolate sweetfreedom.co.uk/index.php/choc-shot You can get it in Tesco and health food shops.

Skin has stalled today with healing which is normal. Expect it to be another week before the worst marks fade. Can take a couple of months for marks to go completely but maybe I can find something for those. or buy a Stila palette

The need packing away and putting back in the MN loft.

Thanks botemp I didn't know about the cosrx lotion so will do a bit of research on it.

Just one more time in a row....

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Could anyone offer any advice for what I should add to my routine. I've read and lurked lots and now got myself a bit confused about what I need to add. I'm fairly lucky with clear skin, but I'm aware that I'm starting to look a bit older and tired, so think I need to ramp it up a bit.

Skin type: Pale, with freckles. My skin is very resilient and quite clear, but with very dark under eye circles.

Approx age (range): 36

Primary skin concern: Anti-aging. My lower eye lids are starting to get a bit crepey and I have fairly deep lines on either side of my mouth (like a pair of brackets around my mouth). I'd also like to lighten the colour around my eyes, but I imagine I need to rely on concealer for that

Routine :

AM : Cleanse - face wash with olive extract
Aldi Expert eye serum
Aldi Expert face serum to face, neck and decollatage
Clinique Dramatically different moisturizer (gift, normally out of budget)
Factor 50 spray oil to face and any exposed bits

PM : Micellar water for mascara
Cleanse
Eye and face serum as AM
Nivea Q10 night cream

Makeup : BB cream, mascara, lip gloss

Occasional treatments: Very occasional clay mask

Things I've tried in the past with disastrous results: Nothing. As I say, very resilient skin. Even coped with nail varnish remover being mistaken for toner on a few occasions

Things that are really working well for me now: -

Any dietary/health concerns/pregnant: - Starting low carb/high fat, so hoping that the no sugar will be good for me

What I'm willing to spend on a single skincare item: Broker than a broke thing, so as little as possible, but as much as necessary

I specifically [want help with/am looking for a product to/am curious about trying]: I have a body shop vit C serum that I've yet to try and I'm curious about the anti-aging effects of retinols/retinoids, but not sure which to use and where to add them in my routine

Any advice/recommendations/help will be gladly received

Hi Lizzy! From what you've written I think that you would benefit from more "serious" hydration and anti aging.
When your serum is finished you can switch to TO BUffet or Matryxil (both very cheap). Eventually you could also combine this with Benton Snail Bee essence (so one in the AM and the other PM). This is under 20€ and is incredible value for money.
Step two could be indeed introduction of retinol, again from TO Retinol 2%.
After that you can also introduce an oil - because you are not sensitive you could try TO rosehip oil.
You already have a routine which is great and you use SPF - which one is it exactly? Is it broad spectrum?
Also - which cleanser do you use? If you use BB cream you should double cleanse as well. Which one do you use?

Please don't feel you have to spend a lot of money - buy stuff when you finish what you have and introduce new products gradually.

I'm sure bo will have some more suggestions.

bo - I didn't know about the higher GI content of stone ground flour so thanks for that! I try to buy organic, but I'll also keep an eye for the production method (or go to the mill... I actually know someone that does it). Made corn bread today!

LizzyBennett

First off, an oil will never make for a decent sunscreen. It just won't, I'm sorry. I think the best way to approach it with you is to design an anti-ageing routine on the barest of budgets and you can then supplement replace strategically to make it work for you as it makes the sense to finish up everything you have currently. I have taken the approach of buying strategically, eg. buying sunscreen, cleansers, etc. from France in large sizes at low prices/ml rather than buying the more bargainous stand alone products in supermarkets, chemists, etc. so it will sometimes require a larger investment in one go but work out cheaper in the long run.

AM

La Roche Posay Toleriane Dermo Cleanser (or even cheaper just water provided you're not combo/oily) - £14.71 for 2 x 400ml (minimum order £29 to qualify for free shipping)

Vitamin C Suspension 23% + HA Spheres 2% from TO £4.90 for 30ml. (I have to admit being unsure about delivery costs in the UK, others will have to tell me if there's a minimum spend or not for free delivery) -take note of the textural issues many people experience with this product-

Superdrug Simply Pure Hydrating Serum £2.69 for 50ml (often on offer). Alternatively, if dehydration is more severe, Hada Labo Gukujun Premium HA Lotion £11.76 for 170ml (free delivery) to use as hydrating serum.

Face Theory Signature Moisturiser M1 (unscented) £10.99/£9.34 for 50ml (with promo code 15% off when spending £20 or more, free delivery on all products, no mimimum spend)

Bioderma Photoderm Max Spray SPF50 £11.61 for 400ml (to be bought with LRP DC), broad-spectrum, waterproof, excellent UVA and UVB protection that will serve you well year round in a large format.

PM

Superdrug Vitamin E Hot Cloth Cleanser £4.99 for 200ml (often on offer)

LRP Dermo Cleanser

Advanced Retinoid 2% by The Ordinary £8.00 for 30ml every other day.

If suffering from dehydration you can add the AM serum here again too and use this on non-retinoid days.

Relaxing Night Cream M10 (unscented) £10.99/£9.34 for 50ml (with promo code 15% off when spending £20 or more, free delivery). Alternatively use day cream here, it'll just run out quicker and this cream will be slightly richer.

I was going to suggest the Olay Anti-Wrinkle Toner as a mild chemical exfoliator with added other beneficial ingredients including Niacinamide and Panthenol but it seems to be discontinued or out of stock, which is annoying as it was around £5 and always on offer. I'm not exactly sure at what price the Nip + Fab pads come in at normally but people seem to imply they're cheap on here? So perhaps either the glycolic fix, or the extreme version used on non retinoid nights will do it for you budget wise, £12.95 and £14.95. Currently on for 2 for 1 but I have no idea if that's a good deal or not.

If preferred, a separate eye product Caffeine Solution 5% + EGCG for puffiness and eye contour pigmentation. £5.80 for 30ml (2x normal amount of most eye products). Don’t count on miracles with this though, rely on your concealer for the darkness, esp. if hereditary.

I'll acknowledge there are some issues with the bulk buying strategy as you'll have a higher initial outlay, will probably have to buy some extra product here and there to get to the minimum order threshold and you sort of have to trust the products will work for you.

Eg. though I think the ingredient list of the Nip + Fab pads are more beneficial, Salty's recent issues with a combination of these and possibly TO Retinoid make me cautious and think it's better to rec the gentler standard glycolic fix pads but since you're buying 2 for 1 they might turn out to be a bit tame (or too strong if buying the extreme) and be stuck with two tubs of them iyswim. Moisturisers are generally quite interchangeable, I just rec these because they're the most low budget I've come across that touch on criteria that I find important in skincare, avoiding some of the more common irritants, comes in good packaging, contains a good selection of antioxidants which you'll need in such a bare bones set up and you're supporting a small UK startup business vs. the large beauty corporations which also has its merits, but this is definitely an area where you could economise further.

I will also warn this is a very functional routine, not much in terms of luxuriant textures and nice smells, since your skin is resilient you could choose to buy the Face Theory products with scent or incorporate a treat item like Superfacialist Rose Miracle Makeover Facial Oil 30ml for £14.99, to use as a facial oil (ignore their instructions for oil cleansing method/pre cleanse and just finish up your night routine with it) You can also choose to buy this instead of a night time moisturiser, it will certainly last longer than a 50ml cream.

It's x-post day . I think stone ground flour might even have a lower GI index than modern processed whole wheat flours, iirc it has to do with the structure of the starches (which is also why pasta comes in at low GI). Ekoplaza used to always sell it (the Demeter certified ones) but recently they've started selling them from some eco friendly powered windmill in Wageningen (I think?) that advertises it more prominently but I haven't actually read if it's stone ground or not, just assumed. Think Marqt sell the same or similar. I know the bakers from the blog 'weekend bakery' (who are very ambitious amateurs/pretty much professionals) get their flour from Santpoort which isn't too far away and it makes for an interesting visit with DC but I think the opening hours are very limited.

haha, X post day indeed! Silly me - how could I forget exfoliation! You are much more thorough than me!

I hate Marqt, by the way! Not all their stuff is organic, as I'm sure you know, so you always have to check. Also - they don't store stuff that I usually need (like date syrup from Horizon) so I always end up frustrated if I enter.
I often go to an independent organic store - I'm going to double check their flour next time! I'll also ask this woman again which mill she goes to - it's not the one you mentioned, but obviously I've forgotten the name.
Yes, the flour in Italy is amazing. Even eating bread there is a completely different experience!
I tried the date syrup from AH, by the way, and it's very good and also cheaper than the Horizo, though not organic.