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[bigbuttons]

sorry for rubbish title, it's been a very long day!

I was reading Paula Begoun's advice on how to use retinols and she says it's fine to acid tone, serum and moisturise when using retinols but does this also apply to retin a/tretinoin? I was under the impression that when using retin a you should just cleanse and use retin a and that's it....and maybe a moisturiser on top.

Please can someone critique my routine? I am late 50s, with post-menopausal skin – fine lines and deeper wrinkles, lack of firmness round neck/jaw and some cheek crepiness.

Morning
Nuxe cleanser removed with flannel
REN Clarimatte
L’Occitane Immortelle Divine Serum, Moisturiser & Eye Cream (using up last of all this and will repurchase if no one has better suggestions)
SPF

Night

REN Rosa Centifolia Hot Cloth Cleanser

Nuxe cleanser (as morning)
REN Clarimatte
REN Bio Retinoid Oil

Weekly REN Glycolactic Mask

Are there alternatives or additions to my routine people can suggest? As you may guess I’ve recently discovered REN and like them. I prefer more "green" products.

Many thanks

kundry I may be repeating a question but could I ask you what retin A product you use and where you get it from ? Or am I being a total duh and it's the Paula's choice cream/gel ...? Confused thanks

Back2Two any Paula's Choice 2% BHA would be good but I'll probably buy the treatment reviewed by CH next time as it's got lots of extra goodies such as antioxidants.

AsBrightAsAJewel I'll have a go

am - CH doesn't rate REN Clarimatte anymore as she says the acid isn't as good since they reformulated it. Better acids would be the Paula's Choice treatment, FAB Radiance, Clearasil pads Pixi-Glow, Bravura Calendula Toner etc - all mentioned a zillion times in the thread, have a look at CH's top 10 toners
Serum - wait for CH's serum month! L'Occitane website is v vague about what the serum contains (immortelle flowers ) that actually does good. Beautypedia trashes it but admits there are antioxidants and Vit C in there. You could prob do just as well for Vit C elsewhere for a fraction of the price
Eye cream - prob doesn't do anything the moisturiser doesn't already do
SPF - great

pm-Clarimatte as before
REN Bio Retinoid Oil - is never mentioned as a top retinol product. If you have the cash I'd go Skinceuticals, otherwise the usual LRP or Avene. Will check if CH has made retinol recommendations, she's definitely done a video with Sam Bunting who says which retinol ingredients she thinks are the strongest.
Retinol is supposed to work well with Vit C so I'd use your Vit C serum before the retinol product in the evening as well as the morning

Finally I am the worst person to ask about green products as I am all about the chemicals - but I think L'Occitane are having you on about being green and natural, the stuff that works in their products is proper chemicals, they have just dressed it up with some fluff about immortelle flowers. Have a look at the Beautypedia take on how 'natural' they are:
www.paulaschoice.com/beautypedia-skin-care-reviews/by-brand/loccitane/_/Divine-Extract

mulberrybag I use 0.25 Retin A got from a dodgy internet pharmacy or eBay same as everyone else

If that isn't for you then go for one of the reputable French pharmacy brands or Paula's Choice for retinol - LRP Redermic R, Avene Ystheal, Vichy Liftactiv, any of the Paula's Choice retinol serums, Skinceuticals if money is no object

The Paula's Choice 2% BHA treatment is an acid, not a retinol.

Many thanks Kundry - off to draw up a shopping list now.

Interesting link - I started on L'Occitane cream after I saw its rave review in The Beauty Bible.

asbrightif you like the L'Occitane then stick with it. It does indeed get rave reviews. I wouldn't change anything that's working for you.

I'm skeptical about eye creams became I'm lucky enough to have eyes that tolerate my daily moisturiser so I don't need a separate one.

As for dehydrated skin I have it in spades, my skin doesn't need oil, it needs hydration. I have vertical lines rather than horizontal ones!

As Twitchcoco said if you like it, stick with it - please don't buy anything just because I've said so It wouldn't be a choice I'd make but we are coming from v different places.

I've been briefly perusing that website link - interesting the only products I can find with five star rating are Paula's Choice. I feel a little cynical about their reviews considering the website belongs to ... Paula's Choice.

I'm not a Paula fan either! The Beauty Bible reviews for immortelle were the highest ever on a blind test of theirs iirc.

She has her opinions about what's good and bad and so obv makes her products accordingly - and unsurprisingly they then get good reviews. She's also obsessed with everything having antioxidants in - I don't think a product is necessarily bad because it doesn't contain everything. There are lots of 5 star ratings for non Paula's Choice products too.

However it's refreshing to see someone giving proper science based opinions instead of the usual 'I used it once and it smelled lovely' or 'it's made from a flower' which we see so many of.

Her rundown of what works is essentially the same as CH and Sam Bunting's: non foaming cleanser, acid tone, retinol, niacinamide, ceramides, antioxidants and Vit C.

Also, irritatingly, her products are really really good. Well the skincare is (the acid products are fantastic), makeup not really.

Sorry to nitpick, but I believe the highest rating on Beautypedia is four stars, and there are various non Paula products that she gives four to. I've bought non Paula products based on the reviews.

I've only got the Paula choice retinol treatment but I want to get something else, the BHA I think it was (can't keep track of all my wants!) she may give herself high marks but I assume she knows what works and what doesn't and makes her products accordingly.

Also any opinions on using acid toners etc when using retin a or is it just suitable when using retinol products? ? Thanks

L'Occitane are definitely not always as 'natural' as they'd like you to think. Some lovely stuff though. Even though I couldn't get past the Divine range smelling of dirty dishcloths after being used to mop up unneutered cat wee.
The Divine Immortelle is much nicer.

You can def use acid products as well as Retin A but you might want to use the acid only in the morning, at least while you are starting out.

almondcakes you are quite right - she only goes up to 4 stars I've also bought non Paula products based on her recommendations.

DrankSangria does it really smell that bad, am laughing out loud at your description!

I couldn't bear Liz Earle's Superskin range - it smells like stewed grass going mouldy to me, despite my best friends raving about it. Sarah Chapman's overnight facial gave me a headache the smell was so strong. Also dislike the smell of Origins, but I do love the smell of L'Occitane's Immortelle range.

Wow, my head is in a spin. Having been a beauty junky in my 20s and 30s always trying to use up stuff I've bought but didn't quite love. I'm now into simple and natural.

Anyone else doing simple and natural skincare routine?

AM: Dermalogica Dermal Clay Cleanser
Aveda Tourmaline Charged Exfoliating Cleanser (in shower)
Dr Haushka Clarifying Toner
Caudalie Vinosource SOS thirst quenching serum

PM: Neal's Yard Wild Rose Beauty Balm with hot cloth
Trilogy Rosehip Oil

And that's it. Weekly Dermalogica Clarifying mask and Gentle Exfoliating Cream.

I notice my skin suffers if I dont follow my routine.

kundry thanks
I have no idea whether I have problems with mineral sunblock. I suspect not. I never have allergies to anything! I just hoped that maybe I was a bit allergic and it could help with my dark circles which will be caused by lack of sleep and alcohol anyway.
Ok, I will go back to every other day with the retin A. I'm not peeling sheets but my skin is a bit ouchie and it really stung when I put the heliocare on this morning.
Right off to investigate cerave and to make up my own version of the neal's yard frankincense oil.
Have your bought anything from active formulas yet? I am going to get the q10 powder. beautypedia gives it a 'best' rating. Might stick it in with the matrixyl.

Ok, three new orders
Cerave moisturising wash
cerave Pm cream
Cornsilk loose powder. I've heard it's supposed to be a like a natural photoshop in your bathroom!

I decided to just use cleanser and Olay serum this morning - no acid toner. My skin was feeling a little sensitive this morning, although it is fine now. A few more spots have turned up so hopefully, like yours, they will go soon Kundry.

Still hovering over Paula's Skin Perfecting and Pore Refining treatments. The latter has hyaluronic acid although no trial size.

I'll be watching closely for CH's serum reviews. Does anyone else find the Vit C serum makes your skin tingle a little?

I bought the boots time delay serum today ( because I wanted a wrinkle filler and it was two products for 13), has anyone used this?
As far as I can make out from the ingredients it has vitamin c (I think) retinol and kiwi and other stuff I've never heard of.

So what about some cheaper alternatives?
Looking for a good retinol or acid based cream for my neck.
its kind of crepey for my 47 years. It bugs me cause the rest of my face is good.
suggestions please..its a minefield out there!! Too many things.

Hi Greengardenpixie I would just treat your neck the same as your face. Think CH and definitely Hot and Flashy go on about this - your neck is prob showing the sun damage done over the years so needs the same retinol and SPF as your face does.

I don't think there is a cheap retinol. How cheap is cheap?

bigbuttons I haven't bought anything from Active Formulas yet but plan to once I'm settled in on the Retin A. New arrival is the Avon Anew e-defence SPF50 - my initial impression is that the bottle is crap but I like the product.