So where is the line between taking a pride in your appearance and being vain?

[Whelk]

I'm just interested in other people's take on this as I had a conversation with a good friend which got me thinking.

I suggested inviting another friend of ours along to a night out we were planning. And my friend said 'oh god, she's so vain'. I was as I have always thought this other friend just took care over her appearance and looked good.

But now I think of it she could be described as vain. Maybe I could too??

So what is it that makes someone vain rather than taking an interest in looking as good as they can?

Good name though Boob

People always think they can do bereavement 'better'.

Anyway ----

Anyone know a good tinted moisturisor?

And do those hairdyers that curl your hair as you dry really work?

Thefirstmrsdevere - I'm pretty sure I'd employ the same coping mechanisms as you to be honest. The more stressed I get the more attentive I am to grooming.

I get up early to do make up etc before school run and don't give a flying fig if other people think I'm odd because I'm not in an anorak.

In fact I got several lovely compliments from other mums last year when DD was a newborn and I'd got my other two in tow doing the school run as to how calm and well dressed I was.

For me if I know I look my best its just a tick in a box really and leaves me free to concentrate on other stuff. So when I worked - if I had a big meeting it was important I felt I looked good as it was one less thing to worry about. Also provides good armour.

I do get rather sad though with this inverse-vanity (is there such a thing?) that goes on. So if you wear lip-gloss and straighten your hair - it means that you are somehow a bad mother who neglects her children.

As someone said on another thread - it takes just as long to put on an ugly boot as a nice one

MrsDV so sorry to hear of your loss. A friend of mine has recently lost her DC at 10 years old (same disease) - we all thought they'd made a full recovery, big shock. I'd hate to think anyone would judge her in the same way.

When my DD was ill in hospital I put on mascara every morning and sometimes some undereye concealer and blusher or something and I washed/brushed my hair regularly. It was part of my protective armour, I was so in denial about her being ill that I continued as normal. All the other parents looked a wreck, they looked how I felt, and they must have thought I was odd for looking like Id spent time on me every day.
It wasn't vanity it was an image to project that I wasn't falling apart and that she would be OK in the end. Because if I started to accept that she might not be okay, and look like that news had hit me, it would become real. So, I dOn't think you are weird.

There. I killed the thread!

Re vanity though I think I agree with others that often someone can pay a lot of attention to their appearance through a critically low self esteem, and I don't think that is the same as just being vain because you think you look good

Nah you didn't vinovino.

I am pretty sure I would do the same thing myself under those circumstances. Like you tracey I step up the glamour when I feel I need the 'armour'.

thefirstmrsdevere - I think looking great at your dd's funeral is a tribute to her.

thefirstmrsdevere sorry for your loss, I also think it's a tribute to your dd that you looked good for her funeral. Don't be hard on yourself. I went out and bought waterproof mascara for my dd's funeral. I guess another parent might just not wear mascara? but it was again a protective mechanism, if people saw streams of mascara tears down my face it felt like it would have made the situation worse.

I think vanity is when people boast about their looks or their expensive moisturiser or treatments (as if it makes them so much better than you).

Taking care of your appearance, and when people are making themselves look good as a defence or confidence boost in tough times is not vanity at all.

vino I am very sorry about your DD.

I too bought a new waterproof mascara.
It felt like I was the mother of the bride. All those flowers arriving, all the organisation and wanting to look my best for her.

leQueen I am sorry about your Dad. I lost mine when I was in my 30s and that was way too soon. You were so young to lose your Dad.

I didnt cry. I think that was part of the makeup coping thing. Once it was on, when my DD was ill, it sort of helped me not to cry. I know it sounds stupid but it was one of my 'tools' to keep it together.

Cortina I am so sorry to hear of your friend's loss. It a terrible disease. My DD never really got better. How awful for your friends to feel that they had made it only to lose their girl

I'm so sorry for all of your losses and all far too young .

I too am so sorry for your losses, so tragic.

nowhere near in the same vein (as my dd was born at 20 weeks) but at her funeral the woman from the funeral parlour commented on my 'exotic' surname and told me that I was beautiful. I remember through my grief being shocked and angry - what the f*ck did it matter what I looked like?? how inappropriate! I felt useless as a mother and a woman, and the last thing I wanted was someone commenting on the superficial aspect of me.

Months later, I was glad that I had managed to look nice despite no makeup etc - am sure my little dd would have wanted a pretty mum of whom she could feel proud. I know that my dd now is always chuffed when I wear a dress or when she thinks I look pretty.

Do we have to be frumpy messes when we become mums? I have DS1 who is 3 and DS2 who is 3 months. Most of the time, I feel exhausted and ache all over. I spend all day running around around my sons. If I didnt make the time to make sure my hair looked nice ( even just clean will do) or sling on some bronzer and lipgloss, i would not only feel minging but would look it as well ! Maybe it's vanity, or it could be taking pride in how I look. Mostly it is simply a teeny tiny bit of daily therapy.

I'm nodding at Bonsoir's answer - if you have to look different from anyone else then that is terribly vain because (unless you're Quentin Crisp) that means you never look like you normally as you normally is just always 'different'.

I also think anyone who reapplies make-up ostentatiously looks very vain (even if applied from behind a Chanel compact). By ostentatious I mean drawing the cupids bow mouth all pouty rather than just dabbing a bit on.

I think I am good looking. Others may disagree

Seriously though, I think my dh, my dc and my parents are the most amazing, good-looking people in the world. Because obviously, I am biased. If someone loves you, they will think the same.

But being beautiful won't make you be loved. Nor is it something that can necessarily be defined, achieved, or bought.

Am reading 'the beauty myth' at the moment, can you tell

I always thought vain was loving your looks, as opposed to making the most of yourself in a fairly pragmatic way.

If you're with a group of women discussing hair, clothes, make-up whatever, it would be easy to spot the vain one, she's complimenting herself when everyone else is being cheerfully self-deprecating.

MrsDeVere - hi! You've made me think about the role that looking after oneself plays in our lives. It's often about taking care of ourselves, loving ourselves and saying 'I am acceptable'. So when people have exceedingly low self-esteem, and are depressed, they often (as you did for a time) neglect their looks.

I hope this paragraph won't kill this thread...but when my lovely mum died I dressed her at the funeral parlour. I took her favourite nail polish and painted her toenails as she always used to. I told myself that one day she'd wake up, look at her toes and go: "Oh, how lovely!" and know that it was me who'd done it. It felt like the last thing I could do to show her that I loved her.

So now I shall change the subject from death! Am I the only one who looks better in her head than in actuality? I think I'm alright-looking on the whole; I've even occasionally been known to look pretty, though that was mostly when I was 2 stone lighter. Anyway, I take care of my looks as a way of showing love for myself and making sure I don't scare people on an off day (NB I do choose the low-maintenance 'taking care of my looks' options! ). Most days I walk out of the bathroom thinking I look pretty good. And then I catch sight of myself in a mirror from the wrong angle, or a photo taken from the 'wrong' angle and go BLOODY HELL!! WHAT HAPPENED? And then I just sort of get on with life.

It amazes me, though, that once upon a time (in my self-absorbed teens) I had time for re-applying make-up and re-brushing my hair throughout the day. Think of all the things I could have been achieving instead!

There's some sad reading on this thread - sorry for all your losses.

I think it's a natural part of grieving. When my gran died we'd been nursing her round the clock and I don't think mum or I had really slept for the last few days, and my then partner found it very strange that instead of wanting to have a long lie-in, I went out searching for a black dress and heels. But I really wanted to look nice and it felt terribly important to be wearing the sort of thing my granny would have approved of.

On the other hand, when you're happy, you mostly don't care too much about looking spot-on.

So true Snoozathon. I have one such friend like that. Still love her though :)

LeQueen- in our culture, if people were shown a picture of waynetta slob vs Helena christiansen and asked to choose the attrative one, they would pick Helena. If members of the padung tribe were shown a picture of Helena and a fat, weatherbeaten woman with breasts down to their ankles they would pick he latter 100% of the time. This is because standards of beauty are culturally defined, not inherent.

Women like Angelina JOlie are held up in our society like goddesses of beauty, therefore we believe this to be true. So yes, I may be less "beautiful" than her, but if you deconstruct what beauty really means then this evaluation is meaningless.

All I know is that there is not one woman in the world who my dh finds more attractive than me.

Speedy I took a long time choosing the outfit for my DD to wear. I had to find her the right shoes and was upset that she wasnt allowed to wear the last ones I bought her because they were not leather. She wore the Tammy Girl dress I had bought her for a party. Before they took her (after she died) we washed her in the Britanny Spears body wash etc. I can smell it a mile off now and it has the most extreme affect on me. I will be glad when it is discontinued.

When I get ready I stand a way away from the mirror. That way I look fine. Its horrible when I catch sight of myself a few hours later in the wrong light and to close up! Best not to look I find

I think a lot of my 'vainity' has a lot to do with my childhood (here we go!). I didnt have clothes that fit me very well, I was often scruffy and a bit dirty and my hair was not looked after or washed often. Even in the 70s I stood out. In the 80s I was the target of bullying because of it.

I LOVE clothes now. During the most stressful times (DDs illness, trying to adopted our DS at the same time etc) I shopped nearly every day. After DD died I realised I had accumulated a huge amount of clothes, shoes , make up and shiney glittery stuff. I am still wading through it. I find it very distressing and can only do a bit at a time.

But I have managed to sell loads on ebay and donate 20% to ClicSargent so feel a bit better after each batch has gone.

I really cannot describe just how much of it there is/was. I cringe just thinking about it.

It was my 'thing'. A lot of the other parents drank. Not loads but a bit everyday. I shopped..

Vanity is all about 'me'. It's me me me, listen to me, look at meeee. I may look like I'm interested in you but really it's all about me, let me tell you about what I've been up to, or how I've done something better than you. I can spot those people a mile off. Usually no fun, too wrapped up in themselves, worried about a hair out of place for any of that. Frequently insecure.

Oh, MrsdeVere! . You should not cringe. My goodness, you really should not cringe. You did what felt natural to help you through probably the most painful experience of your life. Well done for following your instincts - and for having non-destructive instincts, at that.

About 2 years after my mother died we sorted through her clothes. My bro and I smelled every item before putting it in various piles to go to charity. It was an incredibly tearful and yet lovely day. I think it was my birthday and although it was a very sad thing to do it was so very lovely to smell her scent again. The experience reminded me of that quote from Romeo and Juliet: Parting is such sweet sorrow.

Losing a child is a totally different ballgame, but I hope that one day you might be able to smell one item of your beautiful DD's clothing, or even her Britney perfume, and remember it as a sweet sorrow.

LRD, your shopping spree sounds totally reasonable to me. Also, I think men generally don't seem to connect with their partners' grief as well as girlfriends, so it's sadly not surprising that your partner didn't understand. Though of course, I'm assuming that your partner was a man!