So where is the line between taking a pride in your appearance and being vain?

[Whelk]

I'm just interested in other people's take on this as I had a conversation with a good friend which got me thinking.

I suggested inviting another friend of ours along to a night out we were planning. And my friend said 'oh god, she's so vain'. I was as I have always thought this other friend just took care over her appearance and looked good.

But now I think of it she could be described as vain. Maybe I could too??

So what is it that makes someone vain rather than taking an interest in looking as good as they can?

I was once called vain by a rellie when I had refused to send him photos of myself with my newborn baby because, as I explained to him, I looked and felt like I'd just been run over by a truck. He told me I was being vain and he was probably right (didn't actually care however, he still wasn't getting the damn photos!).

There's a Mum at school who uses the glass in the classroom windows to preen, pulling tiny bits of her clothes' material about so that it hangs differently, putting her face at different angles and hair-flicking. She is very pretty and would look good in anything, she really does not need constant surveillance by herself to ensure that her glamour rating has not dropped a point.

She has lovely hair and I have seen her take out a brush in a public gathering and give it a good brushing, when it looked perfectly brushed already. Everyone turns around to watch because they hear that lovely cromp-cromp noise that brushing long hair makes.

During sports' day her DD needed the toilet so she sashayed along the side of the track holding her daughter's hand, in front of the crowd (between the crowd and the track), while the most exciting race was being run and everyone was trying to watch it.

She is vain.

< gavel >

I am probably vain. Not because I think I am super duper pretty (far from it) but because to me, hair, make up, clothes etc and being groomed are a mask to the outside world, so is more defensive i think. I feel like I am wearing armour when I go out looking the best I can. I would find it very difficult to look someone in the eye at work with unplucked eyebrows, for instance.

Oh what a twat that makes me sound. hey ho

I certainly do NOT have a load of pro photos with vaseline on teh lens dotted about. God forbid. They make me lol.

And I don't prance at school sports days or the like, in actual fact I loathe being looked at. I think I try to look as best I can so people don't notice me (and say 'oh look at the state of her' for instance).

PP I recognise elements of myself in the woman you describe I am sad to say. There's a reason for it, and I try to stop myself but it's difficult. It's not vanity so much as low self esteem. I was destroyed every day for many years by a group of people who told me how hideously ugly I was and much, much worse.

Now I know I've done well and I look ok, well good sometimes and I've worn well for my age and sometimes I come across as OTT and conceited because I over compensate. In my head I am screwing over those people that made my life a misery. It's fingers up to them. I wonder if VB isn't on a similar wavelength.

Sad thing is it means people don't warm to me as they might otherwise (especially women). I am a good friend, good laugh and nice person but I think I put people off. :)

Agree Cortina.

I would say that my vanity comes from extreme lack of self esteem. I act really confident now (at work anyway, I have to) but that is what it is, an act.

Also find that people think that I am quite cold and reserved when they first know me.

I think mysticmasseuse summed it up perfectly... Vanity is when everything is about you - not whether you look good or not.

I think people like me who constantly check their appearance or worry about how they look are, in fact, probably a bit insecure about it or again like me have been brought up to believe that they have to look good all the time. I find a trip to the supermarket looking like a wreck helps with that

I think vanity is about dressing/grooming in such a way as to ensure that you stand out in the crowd (whatever that crowd may be), rather than fit in.

There are several mothers at my DD's school gate who definitely dress/groom to stand out - new designer clothes almost every day, perfect hair/nails/high heels at pick up time etc. Mostly they look rather silly, as the average standard of dress/grooming is already high. So the vain women really have to go to extremes to stand out.

Playsuit, bare legs and high heels to take your 5 year old DD to the sandpit?

Pink strapless Chanel cocktail dress to sit and chat with other mothers on the grass in the park?

Balloonslayer meant that could be me but Getorfmoiland you sound very similar to me too. Yes, I am told I come across as cold and distant at first.

I look at my sisters girls who are in their early teens and admire their confidence in their looks and body confidence. They are so easy in their own skin.

I met a lady once who was glamour itself, always dressed differently in a stylish yet suitably elegant, understated outfit. Perfect hair, perfecltly organised, great career and family. People seemed to hate her and be drawn towards her in equal measure. The women were very threatened generally. Chatting to her I found she was once depressed and clinically obese she had changed her life and that meant a new, different regime. She was still very unsure underneath a seemingly unruffled, glossy exterior.

Where are you Bonsoir? Many as you describe are really like me inside. We may have had bowl haircuts, acne, puppy fat and been a despised loser wearing a lime green dash tracksuit at 14, but you know what, we can hold our own now! Sometimes that's the internal dialogue I think and unfortunately it doesn't win you friends.

well if there is, I crossed it years ago!

Well oddly enough I have always found that it's plain people like myself who are usually a lot vainer than beautiful people.

Because, as others have said, we worry about how dreadful we look.

I will not face the world without make-up for example. This is because I look hag-ridden enough with it, without it I would feel humiliated.

Vanity in the perjorative sense is, IMO, someone who looks great, knows it, and is constantly preening not to maintain their looks but to draw attention to them.

I think it depends if you like them or not and how jealous you are of them. I like someone they take care of their appearance, if I don't like them they are soooooo vain! :-)

I keep thinking about getting some really good professional photos done. This is because I take a minging photo that bears little resemblence to what I see in the mirror, and I'd like the dc to have a photo to remember me by that looks half decent when I'm a mad old bat. Does that make me vain? Don't car ereally!

When I think of the mums in their Chanel frocks on the school run it makes me feel very They must be sooooooo insecure. There used to be a mum in our village who looked so beautiful - immaculate grooming and unusual clothes - turned out she used to get up at 6 to do her hair and make-up before going on the school run. And what was really sad is that I overheard some men talking about her and about how lovely she looked, but then laughing because it was 'stupid' in a village where wellies and anoraks are the norm.

I am not an especially high maintenance bird, but I am very hard on yself about my appearance - always have been.

I am was very self-conscious about having my photo taken, and I would hate the thought that people had seen a batch of photos of me before I've had a chance to vet them and weed out the hideous ones. I'm not sure whether that's vanity or just insecurity - or whether they are one and the same thing.

But then I realised that in most photos I looked surly and uncomfortable, so it was hardly surprising that there was rarely a nice one. The best ones are of me smiling and being caught unawares. It occurred to me that if I dropped dead tomorrow my children would want to look back on photos of me looking happy, relaxed and fun - not necessarily beautiful. Though you have a better chance of looking the latter if you can start with the former.

So I'm trying to lighten up on myself.

Women like that get on my nerves, LeQueen - it's so tedious.

On a day to day basis I should make more of an effort to be honest, but if I'm going out somewhere nice I make loads of effort - almost to a ridiculous degree, but I'm a perfectionist. I either do nothing at all, or I'm full-on! I'm a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde in that respect.

So true about photos Fellatio.

Vanity: 'Excessive pride in one's appearance or accomplishments; conceit'

So someone who makes a huge effort through insecurity is not vain, by definition.

The vainest couple I know have no proper mirrors in their house. They just take for granted that they look good, and are open about the fact.

(They're very nice, though).

I constantly fight with myself about whether pointing out one's own flaws is vanity, (an obsession with oneself) or as you say, LeQ a lack of it!

I'm always fascinated by women who, in spite of being fairly ordinary looking, (or just plain ropey) have a fantastically high opinion of themselves looks-wise. I can't decided whether that level of delusion is a good thing or not!

Is that a rogue apostrophe, or not? I honestly cannot decide.

Fellatio I've known some like that and I've noticed how men would often believe that they were, must have been the deluded self belief/extreme confidence that attracted them. Not talking about any personality factors etc, just this. American girls I've worked with seemed to behave like this, the Brits were usually very self critical :).