So where is the line between taking a pride in your appearance and being vain?

[Whelk]

I'm just interested in other people's take on this as I had a conversation with a good friend which got me thinking.

I suggested inviting another friend of ours along to a night out we were planning. And my friend said 'oh god, she's so vain'. I was as I have always thought this other friend just took care over her appearance and looked good.

But now I think of it she could be described as vain. Maybe I could too??

So what is it that makes someone vain rather than taking an interest in looking as good as they can?

I think referring to your own appearance too much - either positively or negatively - is a bit of a social mistake (and one that I often commit).

The women I admire are the ones who manage to keep their gobs firmly shut about the way they look and accept compliments graciously.

I envy their poise.

I often find that men can find certain women extremely sexy in spite of the fact that we women can clearly see that she is as rough as a badger's arse. Self-confidence and pheromones have a lot to answer for! Obviously being extremely beautiful helps, but a beautiful person is not necessarily a sexy one. Mind you, if you are both, you're laughing.

The apparent sex appeal of certain women remains a mystery to me though.

I'm always a bit at women who think they are ultra-attractive and overtly sexy, just because they spend ridulous amounts of time and money on tanning, fake bits, hair grooming/dyeing and make-up. At first glance they may seem attractive but if you mentally strip away the add-ons you can soon see the plain ordinary person lurking beneath.

X-posts LeQueen - that wasn't supposed to come across as a personal attack!

Fellatio, my dad takes 'action shots' of me having fun with the dc and I still looking minging. Unless I'm not really looking in the mirror and instead I've got big photos of someone else all over my house that move like Harry Potter characters, I think I look okay. Not marvelous, but not like the creature in my photos. What I'd like is someone to take action shots of me having fun with the dc that look nice.

Must be possible?

I think vanity doesn't always go together with making yourself look nice. A relative of mine is terribly, terribly aware of how she looks and how other people look, constantly comparing herself and constantly making comments about whether she looks younger or thinner than someone else. However, she is not happy with her looks and will turn up at events with unbrushed hair, mud under her nails or unbrushed teeth - because she hates to look in the mirror or give the appearance of 'making an effort'.

It's still vanity (and sad for her, of course), because she would love to think she is just naturally going to look lovely and 20-something still.

Just saying this because I think vanity is much more about your perceptions of yourself and how they relate to reality, than simply about 'looking nice'. So, it's about not considering does anyone really want to see you parading around in that dress/ do you really need to reapply your lipstick again/ should you change that stained top or will you assume you look gorgeous despite it?

I know what you mean SM ! Sometimes you need to be at least a bit posed, or you will be blinking/wonky mouthed or whatever. But the trick is to try and relax. Not as easy as it sounds, I know. I'm always slightly gobsmacked and proud if I see a photo of me I really like. (I'm just super fussy and hard on myself.)

Boob I totally agree with that. I am working on trying to stop myself countering every compliment I receive with a negative comment about myself. It's not nice for the person who paid you the compliment and if you are not careful it can sound like you are fishing for attention. Being self-deprecating will put people at ease and make them like you. But being too maudlin and self-absorbed won't!

Then I envy your poise, LeQueen.

We all envy LeQueen's poise. Repeat after me, people:

We envy LeQueen's poise.

you know when your vain when you think this song is about you....

I know it's not about me. I don't have a scarf that is APP-ricot.

I wear my hat strategically placed below eye-line, so perhaps it is about me...

I have a colleauge who thinks to wear make-up during the day or worry too much about how you look is very nouveau and common. She would shudder at Liz Hurley etc who are the same sort of age, yet I can't help thinking I'd rather look like Liz Hurley?

Maybe I am similarly nouveau and common, well probably, but still rather look like Liz when I am 45.

I don't think there is anything wrong with full make-up during the day - just so long as it is day make-up! Can't help enjoying a little snigger at people who do the full glitter and shimmer and four colours on eyes at 11am though.

Vanity is excessive references to your own looks, negative or positive are equally vain imo.

No, no make-up at all! No diamonds until night fall, no velvet before 12 and various other 'rules'. Botox and any surgical or aesthetic enhancements are terribly vulgar etc. No long hair over 30 and after having children you should be comfortably plump and mumsy.

Make-up is for the night time.

That's me well and truly vain then!

Anyone who says no diamonds before nightfall just hasn't got any diamonds.

Either that or they've got them in tiaras.

Think she'd like us to think they were in her tiaras but
I am not so sure.

When my DD was dx with cancer I stopped wearing make up for a week.

When the intial shock subsided slightly I began to keep up my usual routine. I dont need to wear full makeup to leave the house, I will go out without nail varnish etc.

But I do wear makeup most everyday and do my hair, sort my clothes out etc.

It makes me feel better and more in control.

If ever I needed to feel in control it was when my DD was being treated for fucking luekemia. I didnt want her to think things were falling apart either, so I carried on.
In fact I probably stepped it up a fair bit. We had a lot of time to do nothing so I got loads of facepacks and treatments.

I DID get criticised. People did question why I still made the effort. Because if it was them they wouldnt be able to blah blah.

The days before my DD's funeral I got my hair done, had a spray tan, manicure etc etc.

I know for a fact this caused a lot of bitchiness.

People need different things to feel good about themselves. No one should be made to feel crap about it. I would never judge someone for NOT wearing makeup or co ordination their clothing.

QUICK now someone say something funny and stop me killin this thread

Thinking hard, thinking.....

Nope. Sorry. You've done it.

Oh crap - sorry !

What we need now is a Tim Vine joke...

Wow - judging a mother for her appearance under those circumstances.

Who did they think was being shallow in that circumstance?

Words fail me.

(See, now you haven't killed the thread. I have).