10 year old lied about her dad, now we can’t see her.

[Humbledmum]

Hello

This is my first post and I’m really needing some support.

Last week we had my partners daughters over for the night - They are 11 and 10 and our routine is they stay with us 2-3 nights per week on a set weekend rotation.

I have two older girls at home, who are at uni and sixth form. Two kind and chilled kids who have their own life and a great relationship with their father and step mum.

My partner and I have lived together for five years, he moved in with me and our arrangement with his children was agreed via a court order after difficult contact barriers with their mum.

His children are two lovely, and firey wild girls who are very different to how mine were at that age… They can be quite fierce and mischievous at times and can often (or always) be quite reluctant to taking any responsibility, as a member of the family, or for themselves. For instance, they will simply refuse to help out in the house by cleaning their room, or picking up their clothes, or brushing their teeth, or taking showers. They are very confident to say “no” and mean no!

Now that they are getting a bit older, it is not uncommon for us to pick them up from school and they smell quite strongly of B.O, or their hair is matted and greasy. Personal hygiene is one of the biggest battles we have with the girls, (and I say “battles” lightly, as you will understand in a moment)

(Before I continue, I’d like to just add that we have tried all kinds of gentle conversations about personal hygiene. We have bought lovely bath and shower items to encourage and tried to set a bath/shower and bed routine etc etc etc)

Anyway, so last week the 10yo was asked if she’d like to take her shower first, or second. She said neither and told us she’d had a shower yesterday at her mums (they don’t bath or shower at their mums and after he text to ask, she had told us she hadn’t)

Her and her father got into a bit of back and forth about not telling lies and his daughter started getting so angry with him, screaming that she hated him and he was a lier and everyone just lies to make her do things. He said “okay, take this up with your mum” and asked her to call her.

She then argued with her mum for about 20 mins, begged her mum to come and get her because she hated it here and she felt scared and unsafe, and when her mum refused she told her mum that her dad had grabbed her, threw her and really hurt her. This did not happen, but of course mum had no choice but to come and remove her and her sister from our house. I think I would have done the same had one of my children ever said this to me.

This is not the first time an extreme lie has been used to get mum to pick them up. There has been a few occasions where they have told mum we have tried to hurt them, usually after they have been in trouble for something.
They have also accused teachers and other kids of inappropriate behaviour in an attempt to get out of trouble.

This makes it really hard for us to ask anything of them. Because of their reluctance to do anything or take any responsibility, and their extreme efforts to get out of things, their father is quite terrified of their mum stopping him from seeing them. (Which has happened with her other children and their father)

Their mum has now said she doesn’t want the girls returning to our home as they feel unsafe here with us and she’s happy to take us to court if it comes to it. This is a regular threat, but you never know when she’s going to stick to it)

Please help. I don’t know what we are supposed to do. In this situation, and how to manage the girls when they are allowed back.

My home used to be such a calm and positive environment when my girls where growling up, but it’s so hard to maintain that in this situation.

Thanks for reading.

These girls clearly have serious issues. Why do you think that is? What can be done about it?

Tbh maybe stick to supervised contact. You and your partner could end up in very serious trouble if the girls make accusations. Hopefully they'll grow out of this phase. Could they get some counselling to help them deal with their emotions?

I think one of the most misused and overused words is 'unsafe' and unfortunately once a child says that, it changes things

Supervised contact is probably right for the moment for both sides

Thanks for your reply @NuffSaidSam . The school have put support in place re. the school accusations, however my partner and his ex wife are not massive authoritarians, and tend to have the mindset of “they’re just kids, don’t expect too much of them”.

There was quite a few accusations thrown around during their divorce and custody battle, about domestic abuse towards mum, so maybe that’s affected them.

Honestly, I think it's probably best that they don't come to your home after lying about something like that. You never know what they'll say next and it could get you and they'd dad into a lot of trouble.

Do you think the mum believes that they are telling the truth? Or is she the type to use any excuse to withhold contact with any excuse?

First question the most on point.

They need an intervention but you and their father are not in a position to get it for them. I don’t think it is safe to have children who lie as part of your household.

That's really concerning behaviour. I would be engaging with professionals that is not typical behaviour.

I would be worried they are having an issue with an adult or another child is disclosing to them.

For your protection, I would suggest supervision.

It's a good point, but issues or not, a child who lies about being abused is dangerous for adults to be around, especially alone. I definitely think these girls need some kind of mental health support but they also can't be allowed to ruin adults lives.

Let it settle, the girls are bound to fall out with mum and wants back to yours. When that happens I'd pick them up with their swimming stuff and go straight to the pool. Even if they don't wash the chlorine will do it's job.

I'd be concerned about the underlying cause though, most children don't happily go around smelling for no reason. Sometimes it's because of sensory issues, sometimes it's through trauma so perhaps unresolved things from the divorce or their younger years, sometimes it's because they feel 'safer' dirty and that can be a sign of SA. Either way with the personal hygiene issues and the lying then child needs a GP visit and a therapist to work through whatever she's struggling with.

Your partner's ex accused him of domestic abuse? So the children may have witnessed this?

There would have been strategy dsicussions held by social services and police in respect of the allegations made against teachers, what was the outcome of those?

I think that there is a possibility that your sd’s behaviour is a sign of something that really isn’t right. And I’d suggest that your partner organises some counselling for them and goes in to speak to school about the concerns?

Is there any way to make them feel safer when bathing/showering to see if that makes a difference. Secure door lock, clothes for afterwards in the bathroom, towel handy, bath already run for them.

Did the girls witness domestic violence at the end of their parent’s relationship? If so your partner needs to get some professional advice about how to discuss with them what they saw; how he has changed his behaviour since; how he is keeping them safe and reassure them that they aren’t at risk from him.

My sympathies for what you're going through. To me it sounds like parental alienation from mum combined with stroppy preteen behaviour.
We also had the 'domestic abuse' line thrown around in court because mum thought it would help her case- luckily nothing came of it but I'd imagine hearing their mum lie about it to court makes the girls think its OK to accuse someone of assaulting them to get out of a situation they don't like e.g washing.

We went through simular in that mum once said the 3 year old said I slapped him earlier that day- luckily I was away in another country (not that I would have dreamt of doing such a thing anyway). Since then- 5 years later, I've refused to be around him unsupervised. It isn't worth the risk to be around lying children as previous posters have pointed out. Go for supervised contact only to protect yourselves.

I think you should ask for supervised contact. Even just to protect your DH against false accusations. You need a third party there

I think you have a number of things here - their reluctance to wash. Their general behaviour, their playing their parents off against each other and their accusations against their dad.
I think he needs to arrange private counselling sessions - as soon as. It maybe a result of the divorce, it maybe something else but those kids are troubled and their behaviour sounds like a result of their inability to express it successfully.
I would also have supervised visits somewhere at least in the short term- I have no idea how this is arranged though and to tell them this is because of what they said and you want them to feel safe at all times.

What is their relationship like with your daughters? would they be likely to confide in them anything that is bothering them?

You have bigger issues here than just not washing.

In cases where children have been abused it is quite common for them to make accusations but not necessarily against the person who actually is doing it.

They want help but are too scared of the abuser to name them.

This, combined with the not washing (also common on abused children as they "feel dirty") would have my alarms going off.

I would be extremely concerned that someone is abusing them,

I would in this situation absolutely back off from making them wash.

Buy dry shampoo/body wipes if you have to.

I would prioritise finding out what is going on, and would be working on the assumption one or both is being abused.

I think you have little to no hope. Two kids have been ruling the roost for 11 years. Yes their parents split up, no excuse though. As you admit mum and dad don’t like to actually parent them. I’d find this so unattractive.

I suggest keeping well away from it and going as far as to say you don’t want to be involved or around when contact takes place to protect yourself.

Don't have them back in your home. Next they will be saying your Daughters have hurt them. Encourage their dad to have supervised contact. If i was you i would stay away.

I’m afraid I agree with this.

these extreme lies have the potential to get you/him/your dds into serious trouble with the police.

supervised contact avoids any of this
it avoids showers
it actually shows them consequences as well

This. Massive red flags here.

I wouldn’t worry about them coming over, they sound like horrible unhygienic smelly liars. Your house will be better without them around. They can get you and your DH in serious trouble.

The mum will soon get bored of them misbehaving and send them back around.

So you always talk about children in this way?

He said “okay, take this up with your mum” and asked her to call her.

Why did he ask her to ring her mum.

He is their parent just as much as the mum is and of course ringing the mum is going to escalate it.

The mum wouldn’t be now trying to stop contact if he had just parented his own child.

What a disgusting attitude to have about a 10yo child.