Holiday issues/passport

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

What do you all do about passport handovers for holidays? Is it the norm to have it with the travelling parent a little before the holiday?
DP would like DSDs passport so we have it for the travel agent who wants it scanning. We would also like it so we know it is in a safe place ready to travel. This is our first abroad holiday. We've only done UK holidays previously due to mums behaviour and ability to ruin absolutely everything because she can (long story). However this time my dad is treating us all to the holiday and isn't concerned at losing money (where as we really would be). So we are obviously worried that she will ruin the family holiday due to her previous form.
Mum is refusing to hand the passport over until the night before holiday (when she says DP can collect dsd) She has just returned from holiday, so there is no genuine reason to refuse it. She isn't travelling anywhere. Both parents paid half towards the cost of the passport. We now travel in 5 weeks.
I have suggested to DP that instead of asking for the passport, that we ask to collect dsd at a minimum the morning before we travel (so it has time to get to court before we fly if she refuses). Preferably the day before that though, but it is unlikely she will agree... I just can't see her acquiescing on the passport. She probably won't on the handover date and time either, but maybe she will feel she has "won" on the passport front so won't care as much? I don't know. I can't work out how her mind works. What would a fair proposal be?

in the passport conversation tonight DP has also learned that DSD is going to return from holiday with us at 4am (if not delayed!!!) and then fly back out later the same day to THE EXACT SAME DESTINATION! Mum has gone and booked a holiday last week without any discussion. DP knew she wanted to book another holiday but he didn't think she would do something like that!
I mean, why would you even do that?! It is stupid! If we get delayed then that is her holiday ruined, and the added stress on us at how she will punish us all if the flight was delayed (because she will). Also, poor DSD is doing a 4 hour flight home followed by a 4 hour flight back to the same bloody Airport in the same day, with next to no sleep (she is 5!). Just why?!!!

Before the usual crap begins from those who are not step parents, no I wasn't the OW. There was no OW ever. 3 month dating relationship. She wanted a child, was hoping DP would walk, he wouldn't. So now she makes coparenting as difficult as possible. Court orders mean nothing to her. She has breached multiple times, she doesn't care.

So what do you all do with holidays, passports, drop off dates/times etc? And did it ever get easier with regards to this kind of thing? DP has 50/50 holidays and we really would like to do an abroad holiday each year. But if we are paying I'm not sure i can cope with this stress each time of not knowing if she will keep to the order.

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

@Flappingfloof

OP, out of interest. If she were to hand everything over say the day before the court date. Would they still be required to attend and the ex explain why your DP had to go to these lengths?

Tbh Court don't ever appear to question anything. But she would still have to go as DP wants the dates ordering so she can't get away with either not sending dsd or not paying for our holiday if she does try something on.

So further developments with regards to dates and times of holiday have happened. I wondered what others think is reasonable. Our return flight is at 22.10 on 4th August. Due to arrive back at 02.30. I would estimate not being home in our beds until at least 5am (45 min drive from airport, plus time for cases, getting through airport and back to car etc). We last flew in 2019 and it took well over 90 mins for the cases to hit the belt. She wants SD handed over at 10.30am. I don't think that is in any way reasonable. The children are unlikely to sleep on the plane (mine didn't last time with a similar flight). Us adults certainly won't. So she expects SD and DP to get less than 4 hours sleep potentially before returning her. DP wants a 6pm handover but she is claiming she is flying on that day (although no information has been given about the flights) so she has to be back at 10.30. It will be discussed in court, but what would be child centric and reasonable to say? I think the earliest that would be reasonable would be 2pm. To allow for sleep, wake, eat, dressed, travel. For safety of DP driving too. There is a chance we won't even be back at 10.30am if our flights are delayed ffs. Who books a holiday to the same destination on the same day that we return.

[MeridianB]

Midday is a compromise. It may soon become apparent that she hasn’t booked anything.

[lunar1]

She's created the stress on the day you return, she can come get her Dd from 12. I can't see how court are going to look favourably on her clear attempt at causing problems with your holiday.

[DottyLittleRainbow]

We had to do this for a holiday with the DSCs a similar scenario to yours and it resulted in a successful specific issue order for the holiday plus a revised water tight court order for ongoing contact. Not had any problems since.

[DottyLittleRainbow]

The court will immediately see that she has been unreasonable to make such a plan with the clear intention of ruining their holiday with their father. Also the short turnaround is in no way in the best interest of the child which will be clear as well.

[pitchforksandflamethrowers]

@ThisMustBeMyDream that is really bonkers. I would if pushed ask for dates/ times of her flights and "when it was booked". She's trying to turn it into a tit for tat look I booked a holiday and withheld her passport because they wouldn't bring her back for my holiday.

Document document document

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

A couple of further updates from this weekend, and from this morning in court.

Hi ex finally told us that her flight was for 16.35 on the 5th August. 14 hours after we land. We checked - no flights on that day at that time. BUT there was the following day at that exact time. Wanting to catch her out, but not directly accuse her of lying DP text something along the lines of "please can you confirm your flight from x to x is on friday 5th August at 1635" to give her a way to back down and say oh sorry I got the wrong dates, we are actually going on 6th August. She eventually messaged back saying "oh no, sorry it's at 1420, the 1635 was on the Saturday we were originally going to book" (there is a flight at 1420 on the 5th). So he messaged further and asked her to send proof of holiday to court as it would need to be discussed on Monday as he didn't think it was in SDs best interest to have a 12 hour gap between flights going back to the same airport but that it needed resolving. Guess what? The reply was "oh well we haven't actually booked it yet, but we are waiting for the cheapest date". The cheapest date is actually the Saturday. So now he has proof, it isn't booked and if she does book it knowing there are only 12 hours between flights, it isn't going to look good in court. She started ranting on the text accusing him of bullying her and all sorts. All completely untrue and fabricated in her head. Dp just ignored it. He had the proof he needed anyway. No need to get involved in her hissy fit.

Fast forward to this morning at court and she couldn't give a reason why she wouldn't hand the passport over, so it was ordered he have it by this Wednesday (watch this space!). She was also told not to book the flight for the day we return as it isn't safe or in child's best interest to do so. Handover was going to be ordered for 6pm but then she complained she wanted it at 1pm so the judge ordered 4.30pm as a "compromise" 🙄! The judge unfortunately didn't seem to understand why DP wanted handover for holiday at 10am the day before we travel, so unfortunately if she refuses to hand SD over at what is now ordered at 6.15pm, then we don't have time to return to court and SD will not be on holiday with us. They favoured her reason of SDs swimming lesson at 5pm for "safety reasons". Which given other rants from his ex this weekend is somewhat ridiculous. She wants him not to put a float vest on SD (who is 5!) when we are in the pool on holiday because she reckons it will delay her learning to swim 😂. She wants us to just give her a pool noodle. Er no, how about we do things in the safest when we are on holiday and you butt out of it. He just ignored her again.
But anyway, it is ordered. So we shall see. All seemed a bit fruitless really, and an equal split of the holiday is no longer sorted, so going to have to go back to her yet again with a proposal to split the holiday time. He did write it on his position statement that there were issues (again, regular issue) with her not giving an equal split of the holiday time. But it wasn't addressed.
Court didn't even tell DP what to do if SD wasn't handed over. 🤷‍♀️ She also ranted to the judge that DP only ever wants to communicate by text and that he bullies her by text (completely untrue, his messages are brief, to the point and formal. He ignores her drama!). Judge just ignored her.
They now go back to court in October for a FHDRA which will hopefully put things in the order for future holidays, both the passport handover and more prescriptive on holiday split (particularly for the summer holiday split which has been an issue every year).

[RandomMess]

All sounds very very painful!

[forrestgreen]

Pick her up from swimming?

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

No, mum is to bring her half way after swimming.

[forrestgreen]

Well yes, but if you turn up at swimming the child is actually there.
As opposed to 'going walkabout' on the way to the Meetup. Thought it'd give you more control

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

No, too risky that she would make accusations, create a scene etc. She probably won't even be at the lesson anyway. It was just about control, not the lesson itself.
Both me and DP have come to accept that SD may not come on this holiday, his ex isn't going to ruin it for us or my children. We will go, enjoy, and sue her upon return then book another holiday. I mean, what else can you do when one parent is deranged?

[ReluctantCourier]

@ThisMustBeMyDream thabks for posting as interested to see how a court handled it. I predict she’ll arrive but martyr like ‘daddy forced me to do this and I’ll go to prison if I take you on holiday’ 🙄

from my pov seems the court decided on the matter at hand and decided to trust both parents were legit for now- but set some boundaries to see if they’d be tested. Frustrating if you’re coming at it from months of fuckery but I guess all they could do with the info presented. Reassuring for us tbh!

[aGeekInJapan]

Please be careful with all the details you're posting. The ex could see this and use this against you.

I really hope you all go and enjoy this holiday. You'd think the ex wouldn't withhold a holiday for her daughter, but sadly the child is just a pawn in some peoples games :(

[Penfelyn]

Wow I have no advice but your dsd's mom sounds deranged ! So much energy wasted and for what ?

I wanted to be a single parent, and I went through a sperm bank because I didn't want to deal with this kind of sh... (and also because it is unethical to have a child with someone without their consent !) if she wanted to be a single parent she should have done that.

Well done on being proactive and not taking her bull... And I hope you have a good vacation.

Poor kid though, stuck in the middle with such an unreasonable mom.

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

Fuck. Dp went to collect SD for dinner this evening. Mum was there at first handover, but her parents were there on the return.
Her dad has just squared up to DP after handing the passport over, whilst her mother shouted from inside "good luck, loser". DP asked what? (As in why, what do I need good luck for?) And her dad started calling him a fucking cunt and other obscenities. Of course DP (I don't know how, once again) walked away. He has the absolute ability to hold back all emotion and temper. I actually wonder if he is human sometimes.
But, now we are worried. That comment has made us both think, they've cancelled the fucking passport haven't they? Google isn't helping me find out if we can find out if it has been cancelled. I just want this nightmare to be over 😭. All I want is a normal, peaceful, happy life. Ffs.

[pitchforksandflamethrowers]

@ThisMustBeMyDream can you call passport office ?

I imagine she wouldn't have cancelled it because she's going on a holiday soon after yours right ? It's doubtful but not impossible she's registered it as lost and got a 24 new passport appointment but those appointments are hard to come by.

I'm so sorry your going through this I really am. I'm not sure what sanctions the court will impose on her if she has indeed done this - someone anyone got any advice on this ? (I have no idea but hopefully someone will come along to clarify)

[pitchforksandflamethrowers]

@ThisMustBeMyDream

You have probably found this already but

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/974821/Passporttcancellations--maliciouslosttandstolennreports--V1.pdf

Contact passport office asap - if it's been cancelled they can put mark on file to stop the cancellation and it will get investigated. Also report it to the police.

I'm gonna do some more digging. I'm angry on your behalf.

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

Tried the passport office x3 as all 3 people gave different advice, one saying that a call back can be lodged, one saying nothing can be done as he wasn't the applicant, and the other saying we need to email caveats at Glasgow HMPO but no idea on the turn around and didn't actually give any clue as to whether we can find out if the passport is cancelled, and if it isn't - stop her from doing so.
I've searched whether we can just fast track a new passport, but the next appt is in Belfast on 25th July, plus she can object and they won't issue it.

"A parent or a guardian can object to the issue of a passport to the child if:-

You have a court order which confirms that the child’s removal from the country is contrary to the wishes of the court; or

You have a residence order in your favour; or

You have a court order specifying that your consent to the child leaving the country is necessary; or

You have a court order supporting your objections to the child having a passport or leaving the country; or

a court has made a prohibited steps order preventing the child’s removal from the United Kingdom.

What a fucking mess.

[pitchforksandflamethrowers]

@ThisMustBeMyDream ffs why am I not shocked the odd document says there only three ways to confirm whether a passport was valid.

What did you get from the courts in terms of written confirmation of the holiday ? I would take anything you have from the. I think that the cancellation takes a while so it may not be cancelled on way out but on way back so any court documents showing a court has oked this should be fine. When do you fly ? (Roughy date so not to outing)

[ReluctantCourier]

They’re probably winding you up.

if they have messed with the passport there will be a very clear paper trail and your DH could well end up going to court to ask to hold the passport given this behaviour. A court will not look kindly on her going against an order.

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

To be honest, the court never do anything about her behaviours. I have absolutely zero faith in them. Toothless tigers it feels like. I'd be here all day listing the things she has done. But family court don't want to know. They want solutions, not problems. It is relentless and exhausting. I'm emotionally drained from worrying about the next thing she will do, because there is always something. We can't even do something as basic and simple as a family holiday without huge cost and stress.
But yes, maybe she was just trying to wind him up however there is something in the way she said it that has made both me and DP think that she will or has done this. It honestly didn't occur to me before. I feel so stupid. I thought the final hurdle would be if she handed sd over. But it isn't. We will be right there at security when we find out for certain. Who the fuck would do that to their child?

[lunar1]

Bloody hell, there are no words.

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

So caveats @ glasgow replied asking for passport details and they will look in to it. So that is hugely promising. Feeling a little brighter with that news. They responded swiftly too, which is amazing for a government dept.

[howtomoveforwards]

We will be right there at security when we find out for certain. Who the fuck would do that to their child?

she hasn’t done that to her child, as far as you know? She’s handed over the passport. Focus on the positive.

Make sure you have an original birth certificate and the actual court order in your hand luggage. If your OH has any known by names, make sure you have official paperwork or debit cards, payslips…anything that shows who he is with you. You want to avoid any ‘mistaken identity’ issues at the last minute. Keep copies in your main luggage and then keep the copies on you when on the beach and out and about, just in case.

Fingers crossed.