A message to those who post ‘you knew what you were getting into’

[sassbott]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4323771-Regret-having-children

Lovely brave thread here from parents, discussing whether anyone regrets having children. From what I’ve read so far, there is a real mixed bag of responses. But there generally seems to be some common consensus.

1. admitting publicly that you regret having children is unlikely to go down well and you have to be super careful where (and whom) you share those honest feelings
2. the pressure on women to have to want to ‘procreate’ continues.

So in much the same way SM’s are piled in on here for voicing those feelings - some parents in RL experience the same.
And the same pressure that we see Sm’s in particular facing regards how they should feel regards children is the same pressure women who have chosen to not have children feel.

So the next time someone says ‘you knew what you were getting into, why are you with someone who had children’ perhaps show them this thread.
Parents struggle too. It’s hard. So why should step parents be able to voice the exact same feelings?

Everyone entering a relationship with someone who has children would be hard pressed not know that the added baggage will bring extra layers of complexity.

It is impossible to read this site without many people referencing what they believe to be commonly accepted societal views of step mothers and step parenting in general.

Unless someone lives in a total vacuum, it is very hard to believing that they did not have some prior awareness that the relationship could and would be impacted by external issues.

They may not have known how they would feel or respond to the situation, but that is true of anyone in a yet inexperienced situation.

I think that women entering into a step situation may experience wilful blindness and denial in significant numbers. They want the partner so much that they overlook or marginalize the obvious until such time as it becomes more of an inconvenience than they choose to handle.

The thing that I cannot wrap my head around is the choosing to position yourself or consider yourself a step parent in a situation where you have made an elective and informed decision not to be the wife.

If I did not wish to marry my partner, I seriously doubt that I would hold myself out to be a step mother in a situation where I was unwilling in reality to become the wife and I know with certainty that I would not bring yet another child into such an untenable situation.

@Tattler2 thank you for your non constructive and thoroughly unhelpful advice. To any subsequent posters please don’t let this comment derail my post and what has so far been constructive/ helpful/ thoughtful feedback. I’d rather we move past this and continue this thread in the spirit with which it was started.

*The thing that I cannot wrap my head around is the choosing to position yourself or consider yourself a step parent in a situation where you have made an elective and informed decision not to be the wife.

If I did not wish to marry my partner, I seriously doubt that I would hold myself out to be a step mother in a situation where I was unwilling in reality to become the wife and I know with certainty that I would not bring yet another child into such an untenable situation.*

@Tattler2 I don't really know what your point is here. I don't think the OP is married to her partner, nor do I think she has had a child with him.

@chocolatesaltyballs22 and others. I’ve reported this poster to Mnet who says they have created a new profile and is suddenly posting (non helpful comments) on a few threads.
Irrespective of what Mumsnet do, I’d rather we simply ignore this poster please. Their aim is to clearly derail my thread and I would prefer it not to happen. As all the advice/ views given so far have been in really good spirit.

@chocolatesaltyballs22

My comments reference my thoughts on the "you knew what you were getting into " statement.

So often posters pose a question and then want to dictate the replies.

If you have the answer, why pose the question. Better to engage in a monologue rather than present this as an open dialogue.

Spot on @sassbott.
I generally ignore all posts from that poster but have read & responded the odd time when I've let my guard down!

@Magda72 @sassbott
I am sorry that you find my differing opinion to be unacceptable. I am uncertain as to what your standards of acceptable my be. Unlike you, I do not think my opinions to be some universal truth or standard. My opinions are simply my thoughts based upon my experiences.

I do not view being a step parent as somehow joining the sisterhood of the unhappy. Problems and issues come with every relationship and every status, in my very limited opinion that makes coping effectively with problems and issues a necessary skill to be developed in any life situation.

Would that we could all be so certain about the value of our particular opinion and knowledge. I bow to your superior wisdom.

[quote sassbott]@chocolatesaltyballs22 and others. I’ve reported this poster to Mnet who says they have created a new profile and is suddenly posting (non helpful comments) on a few threads.
Irrespective of what Mumsnet do, I’d rather we simply ignore this poster please. Their aim is to clearly derail my thread and I would prefer it not to happen. As all the advice/ views given so far have been in really good spirit.[/quote]
Fair enough, will ignore!

Thanks @chocolatesaltyballs22. Really appreciated.

@Magda72 thank you for your post earlier today. It makes perfect sense and in answer to your question, yes he has had some therapy. But I think the future and the reality you are talking about? Is a distant future he hasn’t given much thought to.

You are much further ahead in your parenting journey with your children. Mine are recent teens. But I agree with you wholeheartedly, the parent/ child relationship absolutely evolves. My exh and I have already seen a decline in contact time with each of us as the eldest increasingly chooses to be socialising with their friendship group. As you say, this is great and to be expected! It’s what we want our children to do - have healthy social networks and gain critical independence. With this comes the independence to decide ‘do I want to go to mums or dads?’

My exh and I are not remotely bothered by this as we both know this is healthy progression vs a parent seeking to undermine the other.

The challenge I think for parents in my partners situation is what they are going to do when that ‘independence’ asserts itself within their children. Will these parents (both the mother and my partner) be able to respect the child saying I want to do xyz or will the child meet resistance as a result of what is going on between the parents.

I absolutely agree, the relationship between the children and their mother is very separate to his relationship with their mother. He recognises that. The complication occurs when the mother (in this case) is deliberately using her influence over the children to try and interfere in my partners relationship with their children. That’s when the clear distinction between the two relationships makes this all so messy and complicated.

I don’t think that’s a conversation I can have now, I think that’s a journey he needs to go on, as his children mature.

In terms of how his life operates? His life absolutely rotates around his children. And I respect that. He needs to decide how much more contact he wishes to go for given the wider issues at play and again that is his choice. I have given him all the space and time he needs to make his decisions.

How fulfilled that leaves him in his life at a wider level? Well that’s his choice really isn’t it? Again I don’t think that’s my place to get involved. If he wishes to spend the next 10-15 years fighting for equal footing regards his children, that’s his right.

Where that then leaves him when (as you say) they grow wings and fly? I don’t know.

What I do know is this, on these points I will stay silent. There are some things in life that are deeply personal choices - this I think is one of them. Some parents sacrifice everything for their children, some don’t.

@MzHz I don’t know. Like I said, I need to see whether these are isolated comments said in a moment in time. Or whether there are wider underlying frustrations.

I will ask the questions and listen.

A sensible approach, absolutely.

I admire you greatly, you have your head screwed on and eyes wide open.

@Starrynight468 your post made me realise since my mid-teens I've known and know a lot of couples aged 55+, where one or both have been married and divorced, who live apart.

Some of them are now dead but their relationships were all long term with many lasting a few decades.

The reasons they never lived together where complex as not all of them had children.

However in the case of the women it means they are not their partner's housekeeper, and where a partner needs care they aren't the ones who provide it full-time.

So by @sassbott never living with her long-term partner isn't an issue if both parties are content with it.

Can I just pick this point out @sassbott

What I do know is this, on these points I will stay silent. There are some things in life that are deeply personal choices - this I think is one of them. Some parents sacrifice everything for their children, some don’t

I have never been one of those parents. My friends aren't either. I don't know if that makes us bitches or horrible mums, but I've always kept my own identity. My dc don't go without, I did lots of things i didnt want to do when they were younger, mind numbingly boring things that they needed. I've carried the mental load and made sure all their needs and not wants were and are met. But I also make sure my needs are met. Maybe this is the clash in parenting that occurs? Some people, ex wives and dhs believe that to be a good parent their dcs needs and wants come before theirs or their partners. Maybe this isn't something that can ever be rectified..

@Starrynight468 I too have never put my DC central to everything. I have always worked, always had an identity separate to them. Whilst they are of course my absolute world in so many ways, they are not the Center of the world around whom my whole world orientates. My exh shared that balanced view.

Then we separated and something interesting happened. He became all about the children. Having heard horror stories from other men, he clearly thought I would restrict access/ try and undermine his relationship. They would return from contact exhausted (with him having crammed in lots of ‘fun’ activities). His perspective for a period for very skewed. Until about 6 months in I clearly told him (and had shown him) that he could see the children whenever he wished. I asked that he stop focussing sign much on ‘fun’ and give the children some healthy normality (downtime/ boredom / household chores). Things settled and we found our co-parenting feet.

Now if I was to put myself in my partners shoes? And I genuinely believed that given half a chance my ex would remove me completely from my children’s lives? How would that feel? How would that skew my perception of my world and priorities?

It would feel horrible. I would probably have an underlying anxiety that would never quite leave me. I certainly wouldn’t have the emotional freedom to happily pursue the rest of my life knowing that my relationship with my children was secure. It would probably be the opposite. The lack of that security (that fundamentally only the co-parent can give), would become core to me.

That’s why these dysfunctional separations and dynamics are so insidious and dangerous. I would lay everything I own on the line to say that his ex knows exactly what she is doing and this is exactly why she constantly stirs conflict around the children. She doesn’t want my partner to have the freedom to move on, she wants him circling the children (and by proxy, her).

Short of him accepting that she could achieve her aim, and making peace with it. How can he regain that equilibrium? And that’s what I mean by sacrifice. He may never accept that truth and until he draws his dying breath fight for his relationship with his children.

It’s his life, his decisions. I don’t think it’s my place (as I’ve said) to draw judgement. Because truth be told, I don’t know what I would do in his shoes. So, I stay silent. His life, his children, his choices.

In terms of needs and wants and prioritisation of own needs and partners needs and children’s needs?

I think that in some of these situations a core need of the parent is met via the children. So the parents needs and the children’s needs become the one and the same. The challenge becomes when a partners needs are thrown into the mix and they will very rarely (if ever) be met in the same way the parents needs are (I.e via the children).

I think that becomes a massive friction point.

Where do I stand on this? The person who needs to ensure my needs are met and I am happy and fulfilled is me. My adult intimate relationship is only one small part of my needs. Outside of that I have needs of

• my relationship with my children
• my relationship with my family/ friends
• my financial security
• a fulfilling career
• my mental health
• my physical fitness
• travel
• new experiences / growth
• learning new skills

The list can probably go on. All of the above do not pivot around my intimate relationship. Sure it would be good to have some overlap: new experiences/ travel/ fitness….but those needs being met are not dependent on my partner.

What’s my point?
For me this isn’t about prioritisation of my needs over his needs around his children.
He needs time and space to figure that out.
I need time and space to fulfil my own needs.
If, outside of that, our common ground and time together meets the needs of ‘this is what I want from my partner’, then it can work. Especially in separate homes with that very real physical space where we each have the very real space to work on our respective needs that maybe aren’t aligned.

That’s how it works in my brain anyhows

@sassbott & @Starrynight468 all excellent posts.
I'm not a parent who centres everything around her children either & I suppose where I would be in this situation is that I would want to have a conversation with my partner about our vision for our future - bearing in mind that while you can't predict anything you can work towards goals.
For eg. I love travel & am quite happy to do so alone, with family or with my dc. However, when my dc are all independent & I have more free time I know that (ideally) I want to travel more - it's very important to me. I'd want to know if my partner felt the same about his/our future or if he'd rather be playing football with grandkids, because as a couple with all dc 'gone' I'd like to think we'd have common goals/interests.
I work hard to educate my kids. They'll all have 3rd level education if they wish & there will be money there for Masters programmes also, if they so wish. I have prioritised interesting holidays & experiences for them & various other things I deem important. However I am very clear that interesting experiences & a better than good education are my way of setting them up for a life of independence & there is no way (unless in dire emergency) am I going to be giving them house deposits & the like. I hope that I've set them up to choose careers that will fulfil them in all ways & that my surplus money (if I'm lucky enough to have any) will be earmarked for my retirement/old age to spend how I choose. Again I personally would like to know my partners stance on something like this. Of course it would be his prerogative on how he spends his money but if the way he wishes to spend his money & the way I wish to spend mine impacts what we can do & how we can be as a couple once there's only us then I'd again have a problem with it. I wouldn't want to set off for South America for 6 months alone because my dp had decided to hand over a house deposit to a working adult child.
Personally I could (& did) cope with a lot of separation & independence when the dc are dependents but I'd like to feel that we were somewhat on the same page regarding the child free future we'd be envisioning for us.
I realise I'm somewhat off topic here but I personally just found that when I had doubts/concerns about my exdp's attitude to his dc in the here & now & when I would try settle those doubts/concerns in myself I would then start doubting the compatibility of our child free future as my gut kept telling me that he might always choose to be subservient to his dc's Wants, even as adults, as that's the dynamic that was being established.

my gut kept telling me that he might always choose to be subservient to his dc's Wants, even as adults, as that's the dynamic that was being established.

Even if those aren't his intentions, it is hard when the DC make it abundantly clear that those are their expectations of you. Especially if their in-laws are stumping up for them!

We have an undercurrent going on that is basically "you failed to keep Mum alive, so you owe us".

What starship said but also if the people of influence and DC also know there's a string to pull on emotionally, it can derail a entire future plan, a little bit guilt goes a long way in separated families it would appear.

I'm personally of the view of you make the children your world and don't have a world outside of them they become in someway reliant on that and not always grateful but quite often entitled. It keeps them in a child like state.

This thread is so interesting.

I can see why nrp dads become so enmeshed in making their dc their 'world' because of the threat of stopped access. I can see it and it's not a great place to be in for either the dad, child or mum let alone the step mum. It's great you have your own space and don't live in that unhealthy dynamic.

Why do some nrp dads not get involved in those dynamics even with a nightmare ex? Some dads go to court, put in boundaries and parent their dc. What is it that stops those dads not becoming paralysed with fear over their relationship with their dcs?

This thread has given me a lot to think about. I see my own dh in these last few posts around emotional freedom. He is in a constant state of anxiety that his son will be turned against him and so makes him the centre of his world (leading to all sorts of issues with dss). Dss dm also wants dss to be the centre of dh world and believes that dss wants should be my "priority" too.

@Magda72 I too have always focused on raising independent children. I've done that in a kind and interdependent way. The dynamics between high conflict exes and nrp means making their wants centre and not allowing for independence as they're both in battle to be favourite. It's so unhealthy.

@Starrynight468 because of fear.

For those to who haven’t been to court, they ‘manage’ the ex and situations around the children because they don’t want things to escalate.

Also, because (despite what many flippant posters come on here and post ‘why doesn’t your useless husband take her to court and get proper access sorted?’) court is expensive, stressful and pretty horrific for the children. 9 times out of 10 if a NRP is dealing with a RP the other side who could ‘flip’/ or whom shows signs of being slightly high conflict, the court route only escalates things.

Firstly, IME (and this is wider than just my partner), it never just costs ‘a few hundred pounds’ for an application.
Why? Because by the time the application is listed and a hearing scheduled, the RP’s who mean business will submit a statement giving their reasons for stopping contact. The NRP hit the child. The child is scared and doesn’t want to go. The NRP is abusive. The SP is abusive. The child only wants daytime contact, not staying contact. The list is endless (and the above are minor examples). It goes without saying that the allegations can be far more extreme than the above.

The minute the above happens, a court is highly likely to say an investigation is needed. Cue Cafcass being introduced. Cafcass can interview the children, schools, parents (yup, when step parents), anyone they wish around the child.

This may then progress to a fact finding hearing where there is more prep (statements/ bundles) - by this point if anyone has a pot to piss in they have had to hire legal representation.

Then there are final hearings. Where a judge sets a CO.

All of the above fuels conflict between the parents. The children being interviewed is stressful and heartbreaking for them, 9 times out of 10 it’s highly likely there is some parental pressure being applied in the background.
It’s expensive, if you’re defending your core reputation (and some of the allegations could become criminal allegations in civil courts), you hire good legal representation. This can easily run into tens of thousands of pounds.

Then comes a court order, in black and white stating when an NRP can see/ speak to their children. Outside of that, no contact. Advice is given, never deviate from the CO.

Then the kicker? The family court hearings are sealed. So whatever has been ‘alleged’ behind closed doors - however vile and unfounded. Even if a parent is cleared of all allegations, think there are any repercussions that the parent who made them faces? No is the answer.

Even where findings are made (and if a judge goes as far as to say on the basis on the evidence in front of me, I don’t believe this happened…I.e it’s a false allegation), nothing happens to the parent making that allegation. Ultimately there is no proof that the parent is lying and even if there is, to pursue civil action outside of the family court is advised against as the family court judges will view that as inciting conflict and it not being in the best interests of the children.

So thats why so many NRP’s live like this. This is not as rare as people think. It is now become commonplace / a daily occurrence that family courts investigate allegations that could result in criminal prosecutions. Police and family judges are very aware of the higher level of allegations when child contact proceedings are taking place. Sad but true.

So if you are a NRP and you can avoid the extreme version of the above happening, why would you go to court?

I’ll add, court orders can be breached. It then takes another application and another wait for it to be heard. What happens to the parent breaching? First few times? Nothing. Aside from a ‘don’t do it again’. It’s a joke.

Then, having got the court order, the next set of issues appear once a parent invokes ‘child wishes’. So once a child reaches a certain age. Stating that the parent (or a court) cannot make a child go for contact.

So even with a court order, nothing is secure. Once one party shows their lack of support for the other parent, it’s a shit show. The question is how much of one it becomes.

… and even if you get that far, all the while the kids are being absolutely destroyed by the mother, weaponised to inflict maximum pain on their dad, and anyone else connected to him. The damage done is horrendous. Nothing is worth watching a child, any child let alone your own child, be damaged before your eyes.

It really is a case of - be a Disney dad and centre your world around managing the high conflict ex or give up on your dc then for these dads.

Tbh @sassbott you have given me more sympathy for dhs position. I didn't fully get why he wouldn't go to court and get access instead of being held hostage.

@MzHz yes the children are destroyed. It’s heartbreaking to witness and virtually impossible to comprehend how a parent does this to their own child. Which is why I say, damaged people damage people. These men (to some degree) will know about the underlying damage, they were with this person.

The flip side is children are resilient. What my partners children were put through (I think) was awful. However, now they’re through it? They’re thriving and know they are loved by their dad. I’m also pretty sure that they know it’s their mother who is the driving force behind not allowing more contact. The youngest recently commented ‘it’s not my choice that I can’t see you more, it’s mummy.’ So his kids know. The wider question is whether they will be able to resist / form a protective barrier against what she may try to do and use their voices (when asked) to say, ‘I’d like to see my dad more.’ That’s the million dollar question. So the damage happens, but it (hopefully) can be overcome.

@Starrynight468 not all contact hearings progress in the manner I have laid out. But more do than people realise. RP’s who work the system know how to work it - there are plenty of places people can go to know how to work the system in such a way that they can make an NRP’s life miserable and face zero costs or repercussions personally.

It’s why I cannot stand the posters of ‘you knew what you were getting into.’ Really? I’d never seen the inside of a family court. I don’t work in family law. I was divorced and still never had any court involvement. I had no idea who Cafcass were. I had no insight into how biased/ old school the whole system is in regards to primary carers - naively enough I thought we lived in a world with a fair court system (we don’t when it pertains to family courts by the way). So to say ‘well you knew’. Rubbish. I did not know that parents could wilfully act this way and damage their own children. How could I? Who goes through life thinking that’s how it works?

I do wonder if there is a legal route apart from the family courts. What is going on in many cases is outright blackmail. And blackmail is a criminal offence.