Going on holiday

[LuckyGrace]

We can never afford to go away during the school holidays all of us together. We have one DC under school age and my husband has 2 older DC.

Are we unreasonable to go away when DSC are away with their mother? The past few years we have done this, when we know when DSC go away, we will book something for the same week so contact isn't affected.

TwinsandTrifle

I agree that parenting choices and attitudes from both sides make such a huge difference to children after a separation. My DP and his ex have always, without question, made sure their children feel loved and secure, and even during times they've been royally pissed off with each other, they have never brought that to their children's door. They back each other up and they are both confident that the other does their best for the kids.

I have known situations via friends where both mums and dads have acted very poorly following a break-up, and involved the children in that. Things like saying to a child "I can't afford to buy you any Christmas presents this year because your mum takes all my money so the ones she buys are paid for by me too" or "I can't come to your birthday party because daddy said so".

Sadly it's not uncommon and children very much take cues from their parents as to how they should feel about certain things. When they are told something as if it is negative, or they pick up a parent's bad vibes about it, they will in turn learn to consider those things as negative.

My SCs are very lucky that neither of their parents would encourage them to feel sad about something like what OP is describing here.

@TwinsandTrifle
Children don't group up in a vacuum and they see and experience all of the things surrounding them. Children do not feel unloved because of what any one person says. They feel unloved because they have not experienced those things that create feelings of love and security.

If dad is doing things that create feelings of love and security ,the children will feel loved. If that is happening on a regular basis, the children may hear what the mom says but they also know what they are feeling.

My DP wants to go on holiday with ME
And that's why you go together. What about older children who also want to go on holiday with their dad, but are told that they don't need to because they are already going on too many holidays with their mum? I appreciate that in your case, it would appear that your SS isn't interested and if he was, you would take him, but it seems that a number of SMs think it's ok regardless of how the child feels about it.

That’s not holiday specific though is it. You don’t have to go on holiday to have shared experiences and memories
Absolutely, but doesn't this apply to all the children? And surely, the resident children are more likely to enjoy these share experiences with their dad, so why do they need a holiday with their dad but the older ones don't? Isn't that double standard?

So we are right back around again to pretending the younger child's parents have split up when they haven't, which doesn't benefit anyone and also actually overlooks the fact that none of this is actually 100% about the children - either set
No, we are back to saying that if it so doesn't matter who the kids go on holiday with because it's the experience of it that matters, it shoudn't matter to resident kids either.

What is coming out here is: Non-resident children: holidays are not required to have good quality time. Going with dad doesn't matter as long as they get a nice holiday with other family members.

Resident children: They deserve a holiday, it's not fair on them not to go especially if their siblings get to go. They also deserve to go with their dad because why shouldn't they?

I totally agree that some kids don't care to go, in which case, it is surely a non issue in the first place. Sadly, I do think there are step-kids who would love to go on the holidays with their dad, but are being lied to about these holidays, or indeed told that they should be grateful that they get to go with their mother when they do. They are not even asked if they'd like to go at all.

What is coming out here is: Non-resident children: holidays are not required to have good quality time. Going with dad doesn't matter as long as they get a nice holiday with other family members

Resident children: They deserve a holiday, it's not fair on them not to go especially if their siblings get to go. They also deserve to go with their dad because why shouldn't they?

That's actually a very good summary and I don't see what's wrong with any of it.

@Youseethethingis

What is coming out here is: Non-resident children: holidays are not required to have good quality time. Going with dad doesn't matter as long as they get a nice holiday with other family members

Resident children: They deserve a holiday, it's not fair on them not to go especially if their siblings get to go. They also deserve to go with their dad because why shouldn't they?

That's actually a very good summary and I don't see what's wrong with any of it.

I agree.

Also, vivainsomnia, I can see where you're coming from but your comments are all wholly focused only on the children. They are not the only people in either household here.

OP and her DH also need a holiday from time-to-time and if the only affordable way is to go with only the child they have to take because there is no other parent to leave them with then that is what they have to do in order to get a break themselves.

And they are already compromising in order to have the least impact on the older two by paying more to go at a time when the SCs are already away themselves, rather than taking the opportunity to go during term time with their pre-school child. They could be going somewhere nicer by choosing term-time/saving money on the same holiday they are taking.

@Magda72

And if it bothered their parents that much they should have considered it when they split up I actually agree with this. When I split from exh I knew there would be sacrifices made by everyone including my dc, and that their sacrifice - an intact family with all that entails including family holidays - would seem massive to them, & it was. But I also knew that a holiday alone with me OR their dad would be better for them long term than a holiday with two parents not getting on. But these sort of things are just the reality of having divorced parents and children have to get used to that & they do. The problem is the adults projecting their own crap onto the kids. My dc go away with me because I have no younger children & they can have the type of holiday with me they like. Their dad goes away with his (much) younger children & no one cares. He then does a weekend of teen activities with them at some point which their sm has no interest in. He has taken our eldest away alone & no one has minded, he has taken our middle one away alone & no one has minded. It's quality, not quantity that matters to kids. All this hand wringing about the poor sdc being left behind is rubbish in most cases. I know some dads are genuinely awful when it comes to 'first' dc but most try their best & many do so to the detriment of their 'second' dc which is also a rotten way to behave. Intact families don't always go away together & that should be same for blended ones! My siblings never got foreign holidays but I did because I was the youngest by a good few years & my parents finally had some money. None of them felt hard done by because finances were explained to them. I've said it before but all this hand wringing is doing is raising a generation of entitled snowflakes who expect everything from everyone & its ridiculous.

This all of this ^

My DP wants to go on holiday with ME
And that's why you go together. What about older children who also want to go on holiday with their dad, but are told that they don't need to because they are already going on too many holidays with their mum?

Also nobody would tell children this? In this exact situation, my DP would tell his children that we didn't want to miss any time with them so we were also going to take a trip while they were away with their mum, and do some little kid things with their sibling while they were having way more fun.

It doesn't ever need to be so spiteful.

Indeed.
Saying Dad, SM and youngest should not be allowed a holiday together if it's not affordable to take the older kids too has more than a touch of spite about it.

Children don't group up in a vacuum and they see and experience all of the things surrounding them.

Yes I do appreciate this in principle. However, if they are resident with one person the majority of the time, who has extreme bitterness towards the other household, that person has the ability to manipulate what the children "see."

What about older children who also want to go on holiday with their dad, but are told that they don't need to because they are already going on too many holidays with their mum?

Again, when you have to twist the scenario to this extent to try and achieve a point, that should tell you something. They aren't going on too many holidays with their mum. They're going on one. One more than than the zero holidays the first wives club think the resident child should be given, whilst the other children are off sunning themselves.

Their dad isn't there because their parents are separated. So guess what, they aren't go to be everywhere their dad is. And the resident child is, because his parents aren't separated!! Their dad isn't there because he can't afford to take both of them at the non term time price. Their dad isn't there because their mother had taken them on her holiday. None of this is because their father is favouring his resident child.

The father can clearly explain this. Anyone can clearly explain this. And it's completely standard in this separated situation. It's only if someone with poor motives starts drip feeding to the children that "daddy has money for them but not for you" that problems arise.

What is coming out here is: Non-resident children: holidays are not required to have good quality time.Going with dad doesn't matter as long as they get a nice holiday with other family members.

This is hilarious. These poor children having to endure a holiday with their own mother. It's only good quality time if the parent taking them is Dad.

Resident children: They deserve a holiday, it's not fair on them not to go especially if their siblings get to go

It's not fair for them to sit at home and never go because the stepchildren sulking that they don't get a second holiday trumps the resident child getting one at all. I mean what kind of brats are we raising that would sit at home wailing "you can't go on holiday with your dad, because he's my dad and I have to go as well as on the holiday with my mum. So you don't go anywhere with dad unless I come" I mean seriously? Who would instill that behaviour in their own child? That's not the foundation of a healthy adult.

They have separated parents. They won't always attend everything that each parent does. And they need to understand that's completely normal. Not led to believe they're a victim.

That's what creates children who think they're unloved. Sometimes it absolutely is the father. But I'd say it's the father, genuinely, 30% of the time. The other 70% it's just normal life, that the mother twists and sells it to the children to make them think they are victims. Culminating in this faux sadness as they churn out "now they've made up their own minds and don't want to see him
I reall don't think we can put a percentage on it because it is very much a matter of subjectivity. What a dad and SM might feel perfect normal for SCs can be totally different to what their mum and SD consider normal. The only thing that matters is what the children feel and I think it is very easy to systematically conclude that children who don't agree with their dad and SM normality are children brainwashed by their mum.

My kids don't have anything to do with their dad and SM (but do have contact with their younger sibling). It's definitely not through brainwashing, and indeed, their dad and SM have never implied that it could be because I went above anything a mum could do to encourage their relationship and they acknowledge that. They still don't understand though that ultimately, their dad did put them last in his priorities, mainly because they were undemanding children and he assumed undemanding meant happy. They were not, they were upset at first and then they became indifferent. They just never told him because as they said to me when I encouraged them to speak to him 'he won't listen, he will say that it's us being unreasonable, so what's the point'. Sadly it didn't end well and he still doesn't get why they won't have contact with him.

Also, vivainsomnia, I can see where you're coming from but your comments are all wholly focused only on the children. They are not the only people in either household here
Indeed, but as a mum, my well-being has always come before mine. I couldn't do something that upset them just so that I can have a good time. Sadly I think that's what some dads are able to do without any qualms.

My siblings never got foreign holidays but I did because I was the youngest by a good few years & my parents finally had some money
And that is exactly my point. It's not about counting points, who has more holidays than the others as some SMs here seem to do. In your example, the only reason why your sibling got holiday when they were young and you didn't is because they couldn't afford to go away at all when you were younger. It wasn't a choice, it as chosing one child over another, so the circumstances were totally different.

The issue as it appears with OP is that they could afford to take all the children, if they went on holiday every 2 or 3 years, but instead, they are opting for a holiday every year by not taking the step-children. It's a complete different scenario.

The only thing that matters is what the children feel and I think it is very easy to systematically conclude that children who don't agree with their dad and SM normality are children brainwashed by their mum

Agreed it's a assumption but it happens. With frequency. I say this as a SD who had that exact situation and I wasn't alone.

The problem being comes from when people don't explain the reasons behind these choices that are made. All children feel jealous at some point in their lives, they also if come from a separate family do have to accept it on some level. But it's up to the adults to explain that just because it's child's version of unfair (like not letting my toddler eat sweets at 2am) doesn't actually make it unfair.

I would be really shocked as a mum, if my ex and his partner didn't feel like they could go on holiday without including my child if there was reasons behind choice (cost, term time, age appropriateness).

It's not fair for them to sit at home and never go because the stepchildren sulking that they don't get a second holiday trumps the resident child getting one at all. I mean what kind of brats are we raising that would sit at home wailing "you can't go on holiday with your dad, because he's my dad and I have to go as well as on the holiday with my mum. So you don't go anywhere with dad unless I come" confused I mean seriously? Who would instill that behaviour in their own child? That's not the foundation of a healthy adult
You clearly totally missed the point!

Just to explain, again, the question the step-children will be asking themselves is: 'why is dad always happy to go on holiday with our sibling, talking to friends and family about the great time he had, showing pictures, when we are around, but somehow, never wants to share that great experience with us'. Maybe he just doesn't love us as much.

That's what goes into the mind of the child. Going away without them is absolutely fine, if dad also ensure that he takes them away sometimes too, alone or as part of the family, and when he does, it's not a short local break compared to the two weeks abroad.

Agreed it's a assumption but it happens. With frequency. I say this as a SD who had that exact situation and I wasn't alone
Oh it does happen, without a doubt, I am not sure about the frequency. I don't think anyone knows.

But it's up to the adults to explain that just because it's child's version of unfair (like not letting my toddler eat sweets at 2am) doesn't actually make it unfair
Similarly, it's not because the excuse suits the adults that it means the child doesn't have the right to be upset and feel rejected.

As above, it depends on the circumstances, and again, we are talking about families who feel happy to exclude SCs from a one off expensive, special family holiday, and/or excludes them every holidays.

Also, vivainsomnia, I can see where you're coming from but your comments are all wholly focused only on the children. They are not the only people in either household here

Indeed, but as a mum, my well-being has always come before mine. I couldn't do something that upset them just so that I can have a good time. Sadly I think that's what some dads are able to do without any qualms.

I do think for sure that some parents, mums or dads, are sometimes selfish and put their happiness ahead of their children. I wouldn't argue that there are those who do that, like people who can't be arsed to have their kids when they are supposed to, or collect them but just leave them to themselves all weekend rather than spending any time or doing anything with them.

I don't think most parents would do as OP and her DP are if they knew it was upsetting the older children. I honestly think most would not (openly at least) take that holiday under those circumstances.

But I also think that it can be very difficult in 'blended' families because there is often inequality across the board and sometimes choices have to be made to achieve a semblance of fairness for everyone, especially where the NRP isn't a high earner and so may be limited financially, which I guess is the case for OP if they can't afford a holiday for 5.

In my own circumstances, considering how much my DP does with his children and how much time he spends with them throughout the whole year, I would not be happy to not ever be able to holiday with him and any children we might have because we couldn't afford to take everyone. Not saying I'd do it every year or that we wouldn't also do something else with SCs, but just that it wouldn't be fair for our household ever to get a holiday purely because we can't afford to take children that wouldn't even be with us during that time anyway (since we wouldn't go when they were due with us).

@vivainsomnia

Just to explain, again, the question the step-children will be asking themselves is: 'why is dad always happy to go on holiday with our sibling, talking to friends and family about the great time he had, showing pictures, when we are around, but somehow, never wants to share that great experience with us'. Maybe he just doesn't love us as much.

That's what goes into the mind of the child. Going away without them is absolutely fine, if dad also ensure that he takes them away sometimes too, alone or as part of the family, and when he does, it's not a short local break compared to the two weeks abroad.

Again though, most dads would be sensitive to this and if they thought their child was upset they wouldn't be going on about the holiday or showing pictures around with no care for how it made their child feel.

But I do agree with your 2nd point, that dad should make sure the older children get to do special things with him too, even if it's not the exact same.

The issue as it appears with OP is that they could afford to take all the children, if they went on holiday every 2 or 3 years, but instead, they are opting for a holiday every year by not taking the step-children. It's a complete different scenario
This is it really. As a mother, would you be happy with your child missing out on these experiences on the account of children who aren't missing out on a thing? As a wife, would you be happy to be told you could not go away with your husband on principle and if you wanted to go away you'd have to make like a single mum and make other plans?
As a child, would you not notice the years ticking by and your dad and half sibling don't get holidays and you do? If you are so sensitive that you'd definitely feel sad if they went away while you were with your mum, would you not also be sensitive enough to feel sad that they are missing out entirely? Or are you only sensitive when you feel it's you that's missing out?

So back round to taking away from the younger child (and their parents) again for no real gain for anyone else.

@LittleMysSister

Also, vivainsomnia, I can see where you're coming from but your comments are all wholly focused only on the children. They are not the only people in either household here

Indeed, but as a mum, my well-being has always come before mine. I couldn't do something that upset them just so that I can have a good time. Sadly I think that's what some dads are able to do without any qualms.

I do think for sure that some parents, mums or dads, are sometimes selfish and put their happiness ahead of their children. I wouldn't argue that there are those who do that, like people who can't be arsed to have their kids when they are supposed to, or collect them but just leave them to themselves all weekend rather than spending any time or doing anything with them.

I don't think most parents would do as OP and her DP are if they knew it was upsetting the older children. I honestly think most would not (openly at least) take that holiday under those circumstances.

But I also think that it can be very difficult in 'blended' families because there is often inequality across the board and sometimes choices have to be made to achieve a semblance of fairness for everyone, especially where the NRP isn't a high earner and so may be limited financially, which I guess is the case for OP if they can't afford a holiday for 5.

In my own circumstances, considering how much my DP does with his children and how much time he spends with them throughout the whole year, I would not be happy to not ever be able to holiday with him and any children we might have because we couldn't afford to take everyone. Not saying I'd do it every year or that we wouldn't also do something else with SCs, but just that it wouldn't be fair for our household ever to get a holiday purely because we can't afford to take children that wouldn't even be with us during that time anyway (since we wouldn't go when they were due with us).

Agree

Exactly youseethethingis.

Also, it's easy to say 'save up for a couple of years and take everyone' but the reality is things tend to eat away at savings when you have a young family and cars and a house etc etc. It's easier to spend that £500 you might have right now than to try and wait until it's £1500 in 2 years time when the likelihood is you'll have used some for Christmas presents and a new oven and MOT repairs etc etc and then no one has had a holiday at all.

I don't think most parents would do as OP and her DP are if they knew it was upsetting the older children. I honestly think most would not (openly at least) take that holiday under those circumstances
I think under pressure, it becomes easy to justify your actions and indeed, pretend that they do not upset your kids, especially when they are not with you most of the time and therefore don't witness it. It's easy for kids do hide their feelings to when they believe that they won't be listened to if told.

Not saying I'd do it every year or that we wouldn't also do something else with SCs, but just that it wouldn't be fair for our household ever to get a holiday purely because we can't afford to take children that wouldn't even be with us during that time anyway (since we wouldn't go when they were due with us)
But again, that's not what we are talking about. OP says they haven't taken the stepkids for the past few years, which implies more than 2 years, so 3, maybe more. That's what is questionable, not that they would want to go on their own this year, when they've had great holidays all previous years and will be going again next year.

I think under pressure, it becomes easy to justify your actions and indeed, pretend that they do not upset your kids, especially when they are not with you most of the time and therefore don't witness it. It's easy for kids do hide their feelings to when they believe that they won't be listened to if told.

I do agree, but also just don't think this is the case for most children with separated parents. From my own experience of both my own SCs and also friends with separated parents or who are separated parents themselves, most parents still prioritise their children's feelings and do not willingly do things that will cause them pain.

Not at all to discount your own children and their experience as I know there are others who go through what they have, but just that I really believe most separated parents have good relationships with their children, who would feel that they could be honest and be listened to by both parents.

I just think the assumption that children will automatically be upset by a parent holidaying with out them is not always correct and it very much depends on individual circumstances. I know completely that it is not true for my own SCs, who are very secure in their relationship with both parents.

However, I do agree that it shouldn't be a case of holidaying every year without them.

So back round to taking away from the younger child (and their parents) again for no real gain for anyone else
Or back to the youngest being prioritise year on year. What happens if the stepchildren mum takes them every year and dad can never afford a holiday for all. Does it mean the youngest gets to benefit from a holiday with his dad every year and the elder never again? Even when they might never have before (if they were too yung to even remember).

Also, it's easy to say 'save up for a couple of years and take everyone' but the reality is things tend to eat away at savings when you have a young family and cars and a house etc etc
Well again, it's down to priority. I drove a very old car until it died on me because it was more important for me to take my kids on holiday. Again, kids will be able to assess the situation. If dad and SM live in a small house wishing to get a bigger one, drive an old car they have to share, they are much more likely to be understanding than if they are told they can't come on holiday because they can't afford a holiday but then go and buy a new car as an example.

I do agree, but also just don't think this is the case for most children with separated parents
I genuinely so wish I believed that but my experience is indeed the opposite to yours. I can think of 5 friends of my kids for whom this is exactly what happened. Maybe they got closer because of that commonality, but it's heartbreaking that it should happen at all.

Ultimately, if OP SCs do not care about not being part of their family holiday, why post at all as ultimately it's a non issue as it would obviously not be unreasonable. It would only possibly be so if it could indeed upset the children.