I'm worried about SD

[candlelightsatdawn]

I have changed username because I know the types of comments I may get on this but I need some advice.

My DSD has been showing some fairly concerning behaviours in the last year and I don't know how to address them. We have her 50/50 of the time if this is relevant and she is 12. Me and her get on well and she has lots of quality time with her dad. Her mum from her own admission never wanted to be a mum so is fairly uninterested and has let DSD to own devices for the majority she's with her. I cannot control or influence what goes down in their house but I do know she large quantities of time on her own when with her mum.

I have always been someone DSD confides in, but she seems to be proudly telling me things that make her seem like she maybe turning into a bully, she's just started secondary school. She won't say this stuff around her dad and I have been getting increasingly worried.

Example

Me : how was school

Her : it was ok but there's this girl that I just don't like that's tried to join our group and I don't like it

Me : oh why don't you like her ? Maybe she's lonely and doesn't know how to make friends

Her : I don't know I just don't but I have told my friends to pretend she's invisible and that if they speak to her then they will be ignored also.

Me : I don't think that's terribly kind, have you had a falling out ? How long has this been going on for

Her : a while and no I just dislike her, she's on her own and keeps crying because she knows we all hate her. I told everyone in the class she smells because she's poor. She's now told the teacher and now in class we have to speak to her but we have let her know that she's a grass.

Me : does she actually smell ? (Struggling for things to say- I'm shocked). I dont think that was a kind thing to say or do

Her : no she doesn't actually smell it's just funny because she cries now all the time and has no friends (DSD then smiles and looks happy at this thought - she doesn't often smile)

The problem is we are always alone when she says this stuff, I'm not sure why she's telling me. I have spoken to DH and he says he believes me and this type of thing isn't the first time this has happened with DSD there have been incidents in the past with her cousins which the family are aware of (she has two cousins and one is always excluded and it's never DSD - often by silent treatment)

I try to actively say this isn't kind and shut it down.

The latest conversation involves her female cousin who will be joining next year and she's told me she's already told her friends about her and they all hate her and will ignore her 🤯 and that she finds it funny that her cousin is excited to see her. She has openly said she hates the female cousin (not the male one) if that's relevant. They are very close in age.

I get on with her mum and her cousins mum. I'm at a loss. I want to support DSD but I'm also aware this isn't my place and the dynamics are awkward. The behaviour is escalating. She has been known to do this with adult partners in the family, pally with one and openly trash talking the other.

Her mum has frequently spoken about her issues with my DSD and her new partners daughter (they have been together for 5 years) who DSD also hates and openly hostile too. Briefly mentioning that her new partner has expressed concerns that his daughter is being bullied by DSD but she doesn't know what to do so just ignores it !

I worry that maybe DSD needs support in some sense but I'm not sure how to give it or access it. Therapy? I maybe misstepping and shouldn't be so involved but I worry this antisocial behaviour will be detrimental to her in the future. DH suspects that she maybe not be neotypical as social norms or emotions aren't things she adheres too and DSD likes to be put first always and can get quite openly jealous with other girls. I can't speak to that as outside our chats and things she's fine with me and don't mind her being first in this house (I think she deserves a bit of attention given what she gets the other 50% of the time) but all these conversations have been increasing with frequency and potency since she started secondary school, really it all started aged 9 but subtly.

DH thinks it's a phase ? Is it ? Help

Ouch, that sounds nasty. If it were me there would be more tough love and less pandering to her desire to he centre of attention, but I don't have direct experience of this kind of bullying behaviour so I can't verify that this is the best approach.

Has dad had a word with her about it? If she's not telling him it might be because she knows it's wrong and doesn't want dad telling her off?

I second what @aSofaNearYou has said. The fact that this has been going on for 2 years and hasn't been properly addressed is sending dsd that her behaviour is ok when it really isn't.
Bullies, no matter what age they are, are generally very unhappy people who make themselves feel better by making someone else more miserable than they are. The absolute wrong thing to do is to make them the sole centre of attention.
From what you say dsd is 'ignored' with her dm. She is then made the centre of attention with her dad. This is a very confusing head space for anyone to be in and the large gap in attention is probably very disconcerting for her. The extremes in both parents behaviour is in turn highlighting each other's deficiencies - mum tends towards disengagement & dad overcompensates.
I would say that dsd & both parents need some form of counselling so both parents can tackle the bullying with the same approach. But even before that dsd herself needs something (maybe play therapy) to get to the root of why she is bullying & how unacceptable that behaviour is.

I think she's looking to me as a neutral sounding board. I do suspect that she doesn't quite get the social norms so looks to others to verify or not these things.

Tbh to DH he has tried several times to talk to her, to take things away from her when she does this like switch etc mum yells and screams when DSD does get her attention but it just never hits the mark. Happy sad, anger she doesn't show anything regardless of the situation, its a new level of I don't care 🥴

I'm sat in the middle going I have never met a child that you can't reach by other positive or negative reinforcement.

I have mentioned therapy, the problem is half of me says maybe she doesn't simple get the social norms of this not being ok or and the slightly unkinder part of me thinks that actually she's smart enough to hide anything a Theapist may dig up. Aka she will not admit to doing anything wrong.

There was a situation involving her hurting a dog that was sleep witness by her mum. Which she flat out denyed. It's awful because I'm feeling like I should start to document things

Tricky.

Her mum has frequently spoken about her issues with my DSD and her new partners daughter (they have been together for 5 years) who DSD also hates and openly hostile too. Briefly mentioning that her new partner has expressed concerns that his daughter is being bullied by DSD but she doesn't know what to do so just ignores it !

Is this where it all began? Is partner's DD very much a Daddy's girl or getting more overall attention from the couple?

@SpaceshiptoMars

Tricky.

Her mum has frequently spoken about her issues with my DSD and her new partners daughter (they have been together for 5 years) who DSD also hates and openly hostile too. Briefly mentioning that her new partner has expressed concerns that his daughter is being bullied by DSD but she doesn't know what to do so just ignores it !

Is this where it all began? Is partner's DD very much a Daddy's girl or getting more overall attention from the couple?

I think that mums partner is pretty dismissive of his own daughter. Not terrible hands on with either her or DSD but pretty strict if my DSC is to be believed. Makes her open a windows and go to bed a reasonable time.

DSD is a daddy's girl, most of the family acknowledges she does lie.

Her mums off beat (lovely but off beat) and I can't help think maybe it's that but I don't think it is deep down

OP your dh is just as bad as her mum and you also have a role to play in this. She has been telling you stuff in private that she knows she will get in trouble for probably waiting to see what will happen - and nothing has.

In the mean time she has been making other childrens lives hell. She is probably very unhappy and needs therapy.

And YES tell her cousins mum what she has been setting her dd up for. You might not think its your place but as an adult you would think that you would intervene when a group of girls are actively waiting to bully another child..

Stop laying all this on her mums feet - she has a dad that should be parenting her too.

I think I'd get your husband to approach the school about it. She's making other girls' lives hell.

When you're talking to her, have you tried saying, "I knew a girl who did that sort of thing in school. They all said how much they liked her when she was just being normal and friendly, but when she was bullying people they hated her?"

It doesn't sound as though she's thinking about how she comes across to the others in the group.

@scrambledcustard 🥴 not leaving at mums door at all. I like the women. I think they are both equally responsible just with different approaches and neither seems to be working from my view. I have no idea what to suggest other than therapy.
DH has spoken to the mum and mum seems to put it down to "it's who she is" or kids be kids or just yells when pushed and she doesn't believe in therapy.

I'm the SM I can't frog March the girl down to therapy. DH has been arguing with mum about it who has taken the line of my kid my rules or you lose contact. She feels like she's being attacked from all angles (family her partner and the family) which as a mum I get. No one wants to think this. I don't want to think this about SD but facts are facts.

I have already told the cousins mum as I know the cousin as well and she's a kind hearted girl who would take this badly. Cousins mum is hot on it, seen it and knows I'm not trying to interfere

I suppose I just wanted to check I was doing the right thing. I'm shutting it down but the lack of empathy in the girl is concerning and I'm not sure how to reach her.

@HollowTalk

I think I'd get your husband to approach the school about it. She's making other girls' lives hell.

When you're talking to her, have you tried saying, "I knew a girl who did that sort of thing in school. They all said how much they liked her when she was just being normal and friendly, but when she was bullying people they hated her?"

It doesn't sound as though she's thinking about how she comes across to the others in the group.

That's a good shout actually. She's basically when schools open in dentition every week. I'm sure the school has cotton on, but I have no idea how schools work with this type of thing?

I'm also aware that DSD may not see how this is coming across, which maybe why she's telling me about it.

I feel frankly out of my depth.

[quote candlelightsatdawn]@scrambledcustard 🥴 not leaving at mums door at all. I like the women. I think they are both equally responsible just with different approaches and neither seems to be working from my view. I have no idea what to suggest other than therapy.
DH has spoken to the mum and mum seems to put it down to "it's who she is" or kids be kids or just yells when pushed and she doesn't believe in therapy.

I'm the SM I can't frog March the girl down to therapy. DH has been arguing with mum about it who has taken the line of my kid my rules or you lose contact. She feels like she's being attacked from all angles (family her partner and the family) which as a mum I get. No one wants to think this. I don't want to think this about SD but facts are facts.

I have already told the cousins mum as I know the cousin as well and she's a kind hearted girl who would take this badly. Cousins mum is hot on it, seen it and knows I'm not trying to interfere

I suppose I just wanted to check I was doing the right thing. I'm shutting it down but the lack of empathy in the girl is concerning and I'm not sure how to reach her. [/quote]
Tbf all this really does sound as though mum burying her head in the sand is a major part of the issue. How many people is she going to bully while her mum is busy feeling victimised by people addressing it?

I work with kids 11-14 in a school setting, albeit abroad. Part of my role is supporting stuff like this.

I'm not sure why, but this age group is often extremely cruel when they start (11/12). It seems to come from a place of emotional immaturity and insecurity. By the time they're in the upper grades (13/14) they usually have less of a tolerance, for lack of a better word, of bullying. Do you think she suffers from having none of her mother's attention? It seems to be girl centered so possibly she's insecure of her place and is going about it the wrong way?

Not much in the way of suggestions honestly. I counsel the kids but they don't always get nicer. Or some do, but ages after I've seen them, so maybe just with time and maturity.

[quote candlelightsatdawn]@scrambledcustard 🥴 not leaving at mums door at all. I like the women. I think they are both equally responsible just with different approaches and neither seems to be working from my view. I have no idea what to suggest other than therapy.
DH has spoken to the mum and mum seems to put it down to "it's who she is" or kids be kids or just yells when pushed and she doesn't believe in therapy.

I'm the SM I can't frog March the girl down to therapy. DH has been arguing with mum about it who has taken the line of my kid my rules or you lose contact. She feels like she's being attacked from all angles (family her partner and the family) which as a mum I get. No one wants to think this. I don't want to think this about SD but facts are facts.

I have already told the cousins mum as I know the cousin as well and she's a kind hearted girl who would take this badly. Cousins mum is hot on it, seen it and knows I'm not trying to interfere

I suppose I just wanted to check I was doing the right thing. I'm shutting it down but the lack of empathy in the girl is concerning and I'm not sure how to reach her. [/quote]
But you said your DH said she will 'just grow out of it" - now he is arguing with the mum about it, you never said that before.

You also never mentioned that you had told the cousins mum before either.

This child is angry and feels out of control - that's why children bully - to regain some control over their lives. She hast really any boundaries, she tells you she is bullying a child in school and you say 'thats unkind'..If my chid told me they were bullying another child in school id be at the school the next day as

a) My kid doesn't get to ruin some one else school day
b) I dont' want my kids to be that kid.

I'd also be having a good look in the mirror at why my child was so unhappy they had to make another child unhappy.

If your DH can't recognise that then he is an arse.

And it really isn't about 'shutting it down' - this child is looking for a reaction from you. Why isn't she saying this to her dad? Why isn't she telling her dad how unpleasant she is being? This tells me she can't be her real self with her dad. Why? Whats going on inside her head? She is looking for someone neutral to give her the safety and secureness that boundaries bring.

She is bullying a child at school and none of you have done anything. I bet that child is dreading September.

Your SD is openly describing how she bullies another girl. And gets others to bully her, so is the ring leader. She has also set up her own cousin to be bullied by her group. This is awful. That poor girl being treated so awfully by your SD and her pack.

You are not her parent but you are a trusted adult. It is your responsibility to call her out on it, firmly. Every time. What she is doing is very, very wrong. By not challenging her, you are sending the message to her that her awful behaviour is acceptable.

Of course she knows what she is doing. Schools talk about this kind of thing all the time. She knows and she doesn't care. This would suggest that your SD is a deeply unhappy young girl who takes pleasure in making someone else as unhappy as she is.

Your DH needs to take the bull by the horns and talk to his DD. And talk to the school directly. If the ex does not want to be included, that shouldn't stop your DH working with the school. Before your SD gets kicked out.

And no, it is not just a phase. She won't just grow out of it. If this isn't dealt with, your SD will continue with this behaviour into adulthood. Or until she meets her match and gets her butt whipped.

@aSofaNearYou your spot on and my fear is exactly that. I'm worried that because she's seems reserved, the natural assumption is she won't say boo to a goose. But she's going out of her way to slaughter said goose and the goose ends up dead and it's never her fault. Even if she's covered in blood
I haven't seen this behaviour from children only adults so I'm not sure how to manage it. She's incredibly bright child, which makes me think there's a element of thought behind this.

@Rtmhwales have you got any tips on what seems to work ? Practical things I can say when this stuff is said bar what I'm doing now. I think she's always been a only child and struggles with the thought of sharing any attention but not just from parents but everyone ? Kinda a "I absolutely must come first in every area or hell would be raised".

I'm worried we don't knock it on the head now she will only get more set in this view. Re mum I think this plays are part in it and I do think DH plays the other part in it by overcompensating. Neither is particularly helpful for DSD.

I'm sat here in the most unhelpful seat going something needs to be done and I'm starting to feel like ok I need to force this issue but not over step.

It's a nightmare

@CagneyNYPD

Your SD is openly describing how she bullies another girl. And gets others to bully her, so is the ring leader. She has also set up her own cousin to be bullied by her group. This is awful. That poor girl being treated so awfully by your SD and her pack.

You are not her parent but you are a trusted adult. It is your responsibility to call her out on it, firmly. Every time. What she is doing is very, very wrong. By not challenging her, you are sending the message to her that her awful behaviour is acceptable.

Of course she knows what she is doing. Schools talk about this kind of thing all the time. She knows and she doesn't care. This would suggest that your SD is a deeply unhappy young girl who takes pleasure in making someone else as unhappy as she is.

Your DH needs to take the bull by the horns and talk to his DD. And talk to the school directly. If the ex does not want to be included, that shouldn't stop your DH working with the school. Before your SD gets kicked out.

I'm glad I'm not over reacting here tbh. I did expect people to start a witch hunt when I posted this. Part of me thinks she very well meet her match soon because she's not the typical mean girl. She more the kids you would expect to get picked on rather than bullying but that's a post for a different day.

When I really tell her off about this she's smiles. Can't help she's trying to bait the bear and drive a wedge. Kinda like she's enjoying the drama it's causing between mum and DH.

She just told us earlier she enjoyed the drama it caused between her SD and her mum when we brought it up, saying it was SD fault for coming into her house and bringing that thing in (DH went mad as that's the reference to her SD daughter). THING ! She's in her room currently and DH is going to chat to mum.

It's the openness/enjoyment of it all I can't wrap my head around ? I know they said teenagers aren't fun but I'm sure they weren't referring to this

Her behaviour is really alarming. Does your DH realise how strange SD's behaviour is?

In all honesty, there is nothing to stop you contacting the school yourself if DH won't. As an adult, you have a responsibility to safeguard the child being bullied. You can do this by reporting everything your DD has told you.

You will not be thanked for it and it will cause big problems. But someone needs to stand up for that poor girl. And I don't mean your SD.

@CagneyNYPD I think part of him was like that's my little girl she couldn't be doing this, I will talk to her and she goes no daddy Ect which is why im starting to document stuff and raise issues with witnesses, thankfully that the family have spotted this way before me (or I suspect I would be cast as evil SM). I think he thinks if she is being this way, it's my fault (which to some extent maybe true) and for that I have 0 answers.

I think another part of him has seen it all along. He doesn't get mean girl behaviour but he does get bullying. I suspect he just thought it would be her being bullied.

Talking about it, showing disappointment, anger, talking to mum and taking things away she loves has little results as it just goes to ground. I'm not up for rewarding a bully with positive re enforcement is something that should be done for basic human decency and I won't pretend nothings wrong. I suppose that's why I came on here - someone must have had this situation before.

I do think she needs actual help. A professional. I'm scared of what she will turn into if we don't do this.

It's reassuring that I wasn't being over dramatic on this. I'm really unsettled.

Re cousin I have said to keep them separate and to encourage cousin to make friendship groups outside of DSD and I'm pretty close to her myself so I'm sure I will be looped in that way to and can loop in cousins mum and first sign of trouble. The cousin is pretty popular and academically a smart kid. I always thought it might be other way around but no. I suspect jealousy drives that instance. I just wonder what drives all of the other instances too

I suspect had we not all been interlinked no one would have spotted this type of insidious bullying and out it down to "girls be girls".

@CagneyNYPD

In all honesty, there is nothing to stop you contacting the school yourself if DH won't. As an adult, you have a responsibility to safeguard the child being bullied. You can do this by reporting everything your DD has told you.

You will not be thanked for it and it will cause big problems. But someone needs to stand up for that poor girl. And I don't mean your SD.

He's going to call set up a meeting but only because I said I will and so will cousins mum. Mum is gonna kick off but nothing I can do about that tbh

Btw thank you all for all your advice. Some of the things suggested have absolutely reaffirmed what I thought and the school thing was a brilliant idea. Thank you.

'That doesn't sound terribly kind' .,... really? I think that's how I'd respond if a 5 year old told me these things. You're treating her as though she's an infant. I'd come down on her like a ton of bricks. It doesn't matter if it's not your place to say, she lives half of her life in your house so and she's telling you these things so it's 100% your place.

I'd tell her you love her but you will absolutely not stand for bullying, snd that you will be informing teachers, head of year etc if this carries on. That it will not win her any friends in the long run, and her behaviour is embarrassing. I'd also try snd dig a bit into why she wants to treat people this way'.

This is your business, she's made it your business by sharing it with you, and as a 50/50 step parent, you have a huge role here in shaping how she turns out. Take the kid gloves off and treat her in an age appropriate way.

OP I think your trying to paint her as some little psychopath.

She isn't.

No one has witch hunted - just pointed out that that all the adults havnt been doing what they should be doing.

But now there are drip feeds and the story has changed a bit so I'm out.

If this is true then I feel sorry for your DSD because she is a very unhappy little girl failed by both sets of parents.

@scrambledcustard

OP I think your trying to paint her as some little psychopath.

She isn't.

No one has witch hunted - just pointed out that that all the adults havnt been doing what they should be doing.

But now there are drip feeds and the story has changed a bit so I'm out.

If this is true then I feel sorry for your DSD because she is a very unhappy little girl failed by both sets of parents.

I feel sorry for her but not as sorry as I feel for the multiple children she's bullying and planning to bully in several months time.