I'm worried about SD

[candlelightsatdawn]

I have changed username because I know the types of comments I may get on this but I need some advice.

My DSD has been showing some fairly concerning behaviours in the last year and I don't know how to address them. We have her 50/50 of the time if this is relevant and she is 12. Me and her get on well and she has lots of quality time with her dad. Her mum from her own admission never wanted to be a mum so is fairly uninterested and has let DSD to own devices for the majority she's with her. I cannot control or influence what goes down in their house but I do know she large quantities of time on her own when with her mum.

I have always been someone DSD confides in, but she seems to be proudly telling me things that make her seem like she maybe turning into a bully, she's just started secondary school. She won't say this stuff around her dad and I have been getting increasingly worried.

Example

Me : how was school

Her : it was ok but there's this girl that I just don't like that's tried to join our group and I don't like it

Me : oh why don't you like her ? Maybe she's lonely and doesn't know how to make friends

Her : I don't know I just don't but I have told my friends to pretend she's invisible and that if they speak to her then they will be ignored also.

Me : I don't think that's terribly kind, have you had a falling out ? How long has this been going on for

Her : a while and no I just dislike her, she's on her own and keeps crying because she knows we all hate her. I told everyone in the class she smells because she's poor. She's now told the teacher and now in class we have to speak to her but we have let her know that she's a grass.

Me : does she actually smell ? (Struggling for things to say- I'm shocked). I dont think that was a kind thing to say or do

Her : no she doesn't actually smell it's just funny because she cries now all the time and has no friends (DSD then smiles and looks happy at this thought - she doesn't often smile)

The problem is we are always alone when she says this stuff, I'm not sure why she's telling me. I have spoken to DH and he says he believes me and this type of thing isn't the first time this has happened with DSD there have been incidents in the past with her cousins which the family are aware of (she has two cousins and one is always excluded and it's never DSD - often by silent treatment)

I try to actively say this isn't kind and shut it down.

The latest conversation involves her female cousin who will be joining next year and she's told me she's already told her friends about her and they all hate her and will ignore her 🤯 and that she finds it funny that her cousin is excited to see her. She has openly said she hates the female cousin (not the male one) if that's relevant. They are very close in age.

I get on with her mum and her cousins mum. I'm at a loss. I want to support DSD but I'm also aware this isn't my place and the dynamics are awkward. The behaviour is escalating. She has been known to do this with adult partners in the family, pally with one and openly trash talking the other.

Her mum has frequently spoken about her issues with my DSD and her new partners daughter (they have been together for 5 years) who DSD also hates and openly hostile too. Briefly mentioning that her new partner has expressed concerns that his daughter is being bullied by DSD but she doesn't know what to do so just ignores it !

I worry that maybe DSD needs support in some sense but I'm not sure how to give it or access it. Therapy? I maybe misstepping and shouldn't be so involved but I worry this antisocial behaviour will be detrimental to her in the future. DH suspects that she maybe not be neotypical as social norms or emotions aren't things she adheres too and DSD likes to be put first always and can get quite openly jealous with other girls. I can't speak to that as outside our chats and things she's fine with me and don't mind her being first in this house (I think she deserves a bit of attention given what she gets the other 50% of the time) but all these conversations have been increasing with frequency and potency since she started secondary school, really it all started aged 9 but subtly.

DH thinks it's a phase ? Is it ? Help

I don't think 'that isn't very kind' will cut any ice with this child either. You could try appealing to her own self-interest:

'That's a losing strategy'
'Have you thought this through?'
'Give it a couple of years and you won't have a friend left if you carry on like this'
'This could go on your school record and prevent you going to the university of your choice'

Some open-ended questions regularly at family mealtimes:
'What did you do today that you were proud of?
'What did you learn today?'
'What did you do today to make the world a happier place?'
'Tell me something that someone else did that made you happy today?'
You get my drift!

@scrambledcustard I haven't said there's a witch hunt on here. I said I was worried there would be because I know I haven't handle this right. I was on here to get some help.

Ans no don't think she's a sociopath 😂 that's a weird flex I think my DSC is non neotypical. Those things are not the same. I have 0 experience with it. 0 qualifications to even know where to begin. I thought these things would have been caught by the school (naively it would appear)

I feel sorry for her but not enough to not say anything or let it slide. It's easy to say she's been failed by the parents which I don't disagree, but I'm trying to help and figure out how to tackle this from my position without overstepping or under stepping.

@SpaceshiptoMars thanks for these, my wording wasn't correct I just didn't know what to say, I was shocked and responded incorrectly, I had previously thought that she got on with her cousin. She's shared with me but never anything like this. Others have hinted about it but I haven't seen it first hand.

Hmmmm

Sorry but whatever she’s been through in the past is irrelevant here.

She’s a nasty bully and proud of it by all accounts. And the fact you’re going on about being kind etc etc is just confirming that being a nasty little bullying brat is quite an acceptable thing to do.

Your DH needs to read her the riot act. She needs to be told that being a bully is not acceptable, that he will be speaking to the school about this, and that there will be consequences for her behaviour. And that if she ends up with no friends then it will be no more than she deserves.

And your DH needs to then go and speak to the school and tell them what she’s been saying.

One of the reasons why bullies get away with it is because they’re given too much leeway. “Oh poor darling has a hard time at home; must be misunderstood; needs to be told to be kind.” No. They need to be told they’re unpleasant little shits who don’t deserve to have any friends. To realise exactly what it feels like when people tell them what they think of them, in the same way they do to their victims.

If she was the one being bullied then I have no doubt your DH would want something done. Well now he’s in a position to do something about a bully, the fact that the bully is his own daughter is neither here nor there.

I have no advice but I’m following with interest as I’m in an almost identical situation with my youngest SD

@AlternativePerspective I make no excuses for the behaviour. Age doesn't factor as largely into it to much as she's 12 so should know the social implications of this. From what I can see she's had a good home life but I can't attest to all of it simply because I haven't been there so can't speculate past my own knowledge. I don't think there's any justification of it (nerotypical or not) The riot act I have seen is responded to with 0 emotion given jointly and separately by mum and dad . It's not a normal reaction, there's no reaction. I'm looking for ways to tackle this in a way that doesn't just let it go unchecked. She maybe deeply unhappy, she maybe happy, I simply wouldn't know because I have seen neither emotion really in the time I have spent watching her grow up (our families are interlinked so have seen her develop and fall what seems socially behind her peers). She is socially behind her peers.

That's why I'm here, I'm at a loss. I realise I'm not equipped with any shape or form. I'm out of my depth entirely. The PP mentioned school which wasn't a route that had occurred to me so DH is going to speak to them. I had already told frankly what was said to cousins mum and I suspect she too will speak to the school. My wording was completely wrong, I was taken by surprise.

I think she need therapy, because to bully is one thing that should be tackled instantly but to talk about it in the way she has to me makes feel really uneasy, the reactions are not normal to me. This seems past mean girling butI wanted to check that I wasn't missing something. The school point is a good route, I'm concerned the school will handle it like my school which is unless your being smacked in the face any type of social bullying is brush under carpet because it's harder to tackle because all kids have to do is deny it. All I can do is alert all the parties involved (not just mum and dad) and keep raising it and shutting it down

@SpongebobNoPants I'm sorry your in this situation. There has been some really helpful advice re language and school. It's a very difficult line to tread as a SM. All the responsibility and non of the right to take real action baring what I have done, as somethings just be done by mum and dad. Easy one to get wrong. Let me know if you find anything that works.

Wow total sociopath.

She needs professional help... Before she hurts someone or worse.

But you said your DH said she will 'just grow out of it" -

Just to be really clear on this fact DH has never said that. I have never said that.

now he is arguing with the mum about it, you never said that before.

I think your getting wires crossed.Mum and her new partner have argued about it before apparently. I also haven't written down in detail every discussion they have ever had. Mum has said something to that affect I imagine because I don't think this has been taken far enough. DH and mum were arguing last night because of the school thing. I haven't been privy to their discussions historically because I simply wasn't there.

*
(This is aimed at a v small percentage of comments on here and for any future ones to come)

I can't be any more clear on this I don't defend anyone in this situation esp myself. I wouldn't be coming to the internet if I thought I knew how to tackle it. I have never professed to being a perfect person or SM.

It's easy for anyone to say your all failing and rip my posts apart. I have no problem with that actually. But I'm trying to get perspective, help and advice. No one wants to admit their kids a bully, but here I am anyway because pointing fingers does 0 to help the all the children caught up in this storm.

I think that I may have been delusional to think someone may have been able to say, I have had this with X child we did why, z and x. You would think my DSD is the only bully in the world and no one has ever had to tackle this before - no wonder there's rickets. If I can openly say no one including myself has handled this well and this is a very emotive discussion could we get back how to tackle it. What I shouldn't do, what I should advise DH to do, what resources I can tap into.

Im not letting it slide, im not sticking my head in the sand and I have limited influence over certain areas (aka mum) and I am struggling with this.

Have you tried talking to the school?

She hurt a sleeping dog & her mother witnessed it? Well that's appalling. Was she reprimanded about it?

@breakfasty that's the plan. I'm not sure if the schools open but I'm pretty sure there will be someone to speak to about it. It must be raised.

@Jocasta2018 the dog thing I was just bit floored. Mum and DH went bananas obviously. She was grounded for about a month. No privileges, no electronics of any kind. Her mum bought her school excerise books to do to fill the time school and then home food sleep repeat. Same happened at DH house (me and DH weren't together at this time). She flat out denied it to everyone which is the most baffling thing even though mum saw it. The only response that was given when asked why did you do that was "I didn't and if I did how would i know why" I think at some point a "counsellor" was engaged but the counsellor simply said she says she didn't do it and she seems like a normal kid maybe give her more freedom.
I dont know a mum that would lie about it and I do believe the mum.

I don't know the ins and out in detail but I think the women she was taken to wasn't either trained in this area or not high enough up the therapy ladder in terms of skill set. Not to rubbish any choices made in the past but sounded like she went in for a chat rather than actual therapy. Which in my view is different but I have 0 knowledge other than it didn't sound right.

Sounds like her self esteem is very poor. Is there a possibility she has autistic spectrum tendencies as these manifest very differently in girls? Can you suggest to your partner and/or her mum that someone speaks to the school senco and/or year leader etc about this? Can you find other stuff to praise her for in the meantime?

@Checasino

Sounds like her self esteem is very poor. Is there a possibility she has autistic spectrum tendencies as these manifest very differently in girls? Can you suggest to your partner and/or her mum that someone speaks to the school senco and/or year leader etc about this? Can you find other stuff to praise her for in the meantime?

This is the area in which I'm thinking although it justifies diddly, it might help reaching her or at least teach us as way to handle this in which she will respond. Dumb question Senco linked to the school ? I'm going to do some digging.

Thank you !

OP to give you some context about my situation with my SD.

She is the youngest of 2 full siblings (older sister is 16). To her mum she is the golden child and can do no wrong… she could quite literally for example slap her older sister in front of her mum and mum would find a way to make it the older sister’s fault.
She is simply never held accountable for her actions.

She’s extremely pretty but not the smartest, no learning difficulties or anything but definitely on the dimmer side of average academically but that can 100% be attributed to her attitude to school and work.

We have consistent issues with her bullying other kids. She is not insecure, if anything she has an over inflated sense of self worth and entitlement so it doesn’t stem from for insecurities.
She is also very loved by both parents who almost fawn over her.

My DP has got better at reining this in and also disciplining her for poor behaviour but that ie due to my influence.

I’ve been in her life since she was 6 and she’s not 12 so I’ve known her throughout pretty much all her formative years. I am one of the adults she seems to respect because I’m consistent, fair and have firm boundaries with her.

This weekend we have had yet another incident where she has bullied another child. I was contacted via Facebook by one of our neighbours to let me know her DD came home crying after my SD started calling her names whilst at the park near our house.
My DD was there and it was completely unprovoked according to my DD and the other kids who were there.

My DD (11) is friends with this girl so, although my DD didn’t say anything unkind, we had a chat about standing up for our friends or walking away from people when they are being unkind.

My DD dinner sobbed her heart out and said she felt so awful that her friend was upset.
My SD? Didn’t give a single shit… in fact she was smirking to herself. She always does, she actively enjoys and takes pleasure in upsetting other people.

Some up thread “you’re trying to paint her as a psychopath, she isn’t”.

How do you know she’s not? My SD has certainly been displaying a lot of concerning behaviours which I’ve flagged up for years but ultimately it’s down to her parents to get her the appropriate help.

She seems to be completely devoid of empathy and revel in making people unhappy.

The situation with the dog you described OP, we’ve had similar… not dogs because she loves those but insects.
At 8/9 years old my SD would make snail soup which involved collecting snails in a bucket and crunching them all up with a stick until they were pulp. Or pulling the wings or legs off insects, or deliberately squashing them underfoot.

Really bizarre and cruel behaviour for a child of that age.

I thought she’d outgrown that sort of behaviour but yesterday it reared its ugly head again. We bought a hand held fly zapper to take camping as we won’t be able to use sprays etc in such a small space if they fly into our tent.

She took great pleasure in zapping all the flies in the garden yesterday… I’m not talking normal curiosity as all the kids wanted to play with it but you should have seen the look on her face whilst she was doing it. It was pure malice and glee and it was disturbing to see.

At one point she caught a fly and turned the zapper flat so she could watch it be electrocuted and she held it there for at least a minute so she could smell it cooking. She told me gleefully “can’t you smell it dying?” with a big grin on her face.

I am definitely not ruling out sociopathy or psychopathy. Although I do not work in the field anymore I have a 1st class honours in Biomedical Psychology and used to work with the youth offending team within the probation service, so I don’t think I’m completely unqualified to spot the huge red flags.

People often think sociopaths are serial killers, or evil. They’re not, they come across extremely normal in 99% of situations.
They do not have low self esteem, can be extremely charming and often have an inflated sense of self importance and worth.

They can show empathy to people and things that they like… puppies, babies etc in my SD’s situation. BUT they also take great pleasure in causing harm to others, especially if they gain from it from example in social standing (by becoming the leader of the pack) and in adult years financially or simply they feed of the inflict unhappiness of others.

Yes children can be sociopathic and it’s far more common than you’d think.

Without appropriate intervention now, these behaviours will amplify in adulthood.

Essential adult bullies and narcissists don’t suddenly appear, they’ve always been that way since young childhood.

Sorry for the typos, I’m trying to multitask

@candlelightsatdawn

But you said your DH said she will 'just grow out of it" -

Just to be really clear on this fact DH has never said that. I have never said that.

now he is arguing with the mum about it, you never said that before.

I think your getting wires crossed.Mum and her new partner have argued about it before apparently. I also haven't written down in detail every discussion they have ever had. Mum has said something to that affect I imagine because I don't think this has been taken far enough. DH and mum were arguing last night because of the school thing. I haven't been privy to their discussions historically because I simply wasn't there.

*
(This is aimed at a v small percentage of comments on here and for any future ones to come)

I can't be any more clear on this I don't defend anyone in this situation esp myself. I wouldn't be coming to the internet if I thought I knew how to tackle it. I have never professed to being a perfect person or SM.

It's easy for anyone to say your all failing and rip my posts apart. I have no problem with that actually. But I'm trying to get perspective, help and advice. No one wants to admit their kids a bully, but here I am anyway because pointing fingers does 0 to help the all the children caught up in this storm.

I think that I may have been delusional to think someone may have been able to say, I have had this with X child we did why, z and x. You would think my DSD is the only bully in the world and no one has ever had to tackle this before - no wonder there's rickets. If I can openly say no one including myself has handled this well and this is a very emotive discussion could we get back how to tackle it. What I shouldn't do, what I should advise DH to do, what resources I can tap into.

Im not letting it slide, im not sticking my head in the sand and I have limited influence over certain areas (aka mum) and I am struggling with this.

Actually you said your DH said 'it was just a phase'

I'm not get any wires crossed. I'm just going off what you have said.

Your Dh minimised it to just a phase then you later said DH and Mum argued.

Now your saying that the DSD has had some form of counselling session when before no one thought it was that bad.

You need to get your story straight OP.
You need to get your story straight OP

Playing devils advocate here... though I understand others concern for her attitude.

You’re dsd is hurting. She has come to you for validation. For love. Don’t shut her down, encourage her to open up. The fact that she’s not hiding her behaviour is actually a good sign. She’s acting out for attention.

Have regular conversations about friendships, school, encourage empathy.

Ask her how she would feel if someone said that about her. Ask her if she’s worried the other girls will be mean if she doesn’t join in. Find out who is initiating the mean behaviour toward other girls.

Do ask the school for help. Request it gets documented. She does need support and possibly counselling. This is about her not feeling loved, so give her time and attention. Read books together, dance to music, take her out for special treats. She needs more from you, and you can’t wait for her parents to act on it, sounds like they are dealing with their own issues.

Ultimately, she has been rejected by her mother, so she is rejecting others in a bid to understand how it feels and why it’s happened. Basic psychology at play and she’s coming to you for help. You can definitely help fix this. She’s not a monster, she’s a vulnerable young girl.

OP, I imagine that the school is closed now, but they will likely have a safeguarding email address and bully reporting email address? I'm a teacher. We have these on our website and sent out in end of term letter as well, as we know lots of our children have tough times outside school. So you could flag the issues up there. They may even have a link to services within your local authority for when school is closed.

Having said that, the reality is that it is summer holidays and school will best be able to support in Sept when fully open and staffed and when they are in contact with the kids. They can take steps like ensuring DSD and bullying victims are kept apart in lessons, they may have counselling/mentoring programmes. In my experience our behaviour mentors are sometimes the ONLY adult in a child's life that they trust or listen to.

Sorry posting in a bit of a rush but hope that may help.

You all need therapy. This girl isn't growing up in isolation, she's part of two families and is demonstrating her unhappiness by causing trouble. She can't solve it with a therapist alone, you need to address the family dynamic. Everyone has a part to play. I'd start by booking an appt for therapy for you and your dh then follow the professional advice.

@candlelightsatdawn yes the SENCo is the special needs coordinator at the school. Sadly my experience is that as SMs we can influence things very little without making things a ton worse. My suggestion would be to keep your reactions to the bullying comments to a minimum and reinforce the positive attitudes and behaviours she displays. Ultimately every behaviour is a communication so maybe try to think about what it is she is trying to communicate to you and others with these actions and comments?

I think family therapy of some kind would be useful, and she needs some individual help. An adult discussion with all parties (no dsd involved) would be a starting point though. You all get along with helps! Talk to her dad, if possible record, or write down what she confides in you, but I'm wondering if it's a fantasy, for a socially confused young lady?

[quote Checasino]@candlelightsatdawn yes the SENCo is the special needs coordinator at the school. Sadly my experience is that as SMs we can influence things very little without making things a ton worse. My suggestion would be to keep your reactions to the bullying comments to a minimum and reinforce the positive attitudes and behaviours she displays. Ultimately every behaviour is a communication so maybe try to think about what it is she is trying to communicate to you and others with these actions and comments?[/quote]
I really, really don't think it would be fair or appripriate to minimise the bullying comments. They would be failing all those other kids (and animals). And to be fair, minimising it is what's currently happening and the problem is only escalating. There are certain behaviours that simply need reprimamding, and this is one of them.

@gorginabambina 🙄 Thank you for your input. It was valued and incredibly helpful. I could spend my spend time explaining myself and why I view what my SD did not have therapy but "counselling" and in my homeland those are v different things. I could also explain that phase comment - but what you put what "she will grow out of it" which was your interpretation of what went down.

Unless you have something actionable then why bother posting.

@SpongebobNoPants

OP to give you some context about my situation with my SD.

She is the youngest of 2 full siblings (older sister is 16). To her mum she is the golden child and can do no wrong… she could quite literally for example slap her older sister in front of her mum and mum would find a way to make it the older sister’s fault.
She is simply never held accountable for her actions.

She’s extremely pretty but not the smartest, no learning difficulties or anything but definitely on the dimmer side of average academically but that can 100% be attributed to her attitude to school and work.

We have consistent issues with her bullying other kids. She is not insecure, if anything she has an over inflated sense of self worth and entitlement so it doesn’t stem from for insecurities.
She is also very loved by both parents who almost fawn over her.

My DP has got better at reining this in and also disciplining her for poor behaviour but that ie due to my influence.

I’ve been in her life since she was 6 and she’s not 12 so I’ve known her throughout pretty much all her formative years. I am one of the adults she seems to respect because I’m consistent, fair and have firm boundaries with her.

This weekend we have had yet another incident where she has bullied another child. I was contacted via Facebook by one of our neighbours to let me know her DD came home crying after my SD started calling her names whilst at the park near our house.
My DD was there and it was completely unprovoked according to my DD and the other kids who were there.

My DD (11) is friends with this girl so, although my DD didn’t say anything unkind, we had a chat about standing up for our friends or walking away from people when they are being unkind.

My DD dinner sobbed her heart out and said she felt so awful that her friend was upset.
My SD? Didn’t give a single shit… in fact she was smirking to herself. She always does, she actively enjoys and takes pleasure in upsetting other people.

Some up thread “you’re trying to paint her as a psychopath, she isn’t”.

How do you know she’s not? My SD has certainly been displaying a lot of concerning behaviours which I’ve flagged up for years but ultimately it’s down to her parents to get her the appropriate help.

She seems to be completely devoid of empathy and revel in making people unhappy.

The situation with the dog you described OP, we’ve had similar… not dogs because she loves those but insects.
At 8/9 years old my SD would make snail soup which involved collecting snails in a bucket and crunching them all up with a stick until they were pulp. Or pulling the wings or legs off insects, or deliberately squashing them underfoot.

Really bizarre and cruel behaviour for a child of that age.

I thought she’d outgrown that sort of behaviour but yesterday it reared its ugly head again. We bought a hand held fly zapper to take camping as we won’t be able to use sprays etc in such a small space if they fly into our tent.

She took great pleasure in zapping all the flies in the garden yesterday… I’m not talking normal curiosity as all the kids wanted to play with it but you should have seen the look on her face whilst she was doing it. It was pure malice and glee and it was disturbing to see.

At one point she caught a fly and turned the zapper flat so she could watch it be electrocuted and she held it there for at least a minute so she could smell it cooking. She told me gleefully “can’t you smell it dying?” with a big grin on her face.

I am definitely not ruling out sociopathy or psychopathy. Although I do not work in the field anymore I have a 1st class honours in Biomedical Psychology and used to work with the youth offending team within the probation service, so I don’t think I’m completely unqualified to spot the huge red flags.

People often think sociopaths are serial killers, or evil. They’re not, they come across extremely normal in 99% of situations.
They do not have low self esteem, can be extremely charming and often have an inflated sense of self importance and worth.

They can show empathy to people and things that they like… puppies, babies etc in my SD’s situation. BUT they also take great pleasure in causing harm to others, especially if they gain from it from example in social standing (by becoming the leader of the pack) and in adult years financially or simply they feed of the inflict unhappiness of others.

Yes children can be sociopathic and it’s far more common than you’d think.

Without appropriate intervention now, these behaviours will amplify in adulthood.

Essential adult bullies and narcissists don’t suddenly appear, they’ve always been that way since young childhood.

What have you found works with your SD ? I have 0 knowledge of this stuff 0 all I know is somethings not quite right if you know what I mean ? Also thank you for sharing I really appreciate it more than you may know !!

@Snorkello I'm happy to plays devils advocate - to be fair I'm sitting firmly on the there maybe a underlying issue and this may not come naturally to her but it absolutely cannot continue.

@Tigertealeaves ohh yes that maybe a thought. I suppose to want to stop this before it becomes a bigger thing.

@PrettyLittleFlies I do not disagree with you. I personally think that therapy is something everyone should go to, but that maybe because of the culture in what I was brought up with are different to how people view therapy in UK

@Checasino this is my fear in a nut shell. I do still think she was using me as a sounding board for it. I think she does struggle knowing the social ques. She is one to sit really close to you - like very very close and speak without eye contact.

@gogohm there's got to be something at the root of it. I just have no idea but I'm going to broach the subject of family therapy with DH.

@aSofaNearYou your not wrong. This needs to be shut down.