To tackle the controversial topic of 'Jealous' SM's

[TooSassy]

So, I've been on this thread on and off for about 18 months. There are (sadly) only a few threads which haven't descended into criticism of the OP / judgemental comments. There is a consistent critical chain of commentary that appears across threads.

1. Were you/ are you the OW?
2. Why did you get together with a man who had DC's if this is your attitude?
3. You're not the parent, keep your nose out and let the parent parent.
4. How dare you detach and not parent enough, your poor SC's..
5. You sound jealous of your SC's, poor SC's.

So, here's my thinking. I love mumsnet. I have learned so much from people here and not just that, received a lot of support (back in the 'i have a new baby days' stands out). I think everyones perspectives are valued, I do listen and absorb all POV's as I think (the constructive) comments are so very helpful.

So with that, I want to start a few threads. To discuss the above comments that come out on these threads. And see if we can all better understand the thinking that makes people criticise, when in actual fact, we may just be reading a post about someone who is really struggling. Who needs help and is seeking advice.

I hope everyone treats this with the intent it's meant. To be a constructive conversation so we can all understand perspectives that are different to ours. So with that, I'll start.

PinkGinny - absolutely spot on - I do not give a monkeys about the OW!

Fabellini - I am an SM - eldest and youngest - I really get on with but more in an aunt way - which because they were over early teens - we had the conversation at the beginning. They did not need a Mum - had perfectly good one who is the antithesis of me - ( very hippy!) I am the methodical organised scientist!

they wanted an aunt - which they did not have. So they get told off for swearing, get told to clear up, get told to turn the music down and have chores - exactly like mine.

Middle is extremely indifferent - but she is the most like me!! Very science orientated and organised. The other two should have been born in the 60s. She does like the fact that I can help with science homework and then we smile - the rest of the time - meh.

Can it be hard - yes, have I got it right - no. Could they drive me insane - yes but then so could my own. Would I like more time with DP yes but it will come as they grow up. However, I love hippy food night - which they insist on and DP and my two love - they and DP cook - food that his ex used to and they love science food night - my choice of food from my home country.

Horses for courses, I read on here of some very small things which escalate into massive issues and I struggle to see why. Maybe there is a hippy side to me after all - either that or the godamn incense sticks that eldest likes burning really have addled my brain!

@AnneLovesGilbert

but there are plenty of posts on MN from women who say while they don't want their ex back they hate the thought of him moving on with someone else, especially the new DP spending time with their DC or having a baby. They say so themselves so it's not all wild assumption

Yes...but those posters aren't bitter. They certainly don't come across as bitter to me.

I'd say more sad than bitter and often questioning why they feel that way. I don't get the feeling through their posts they're troublemakers.

There's good and bad in everyone be they mum or stepmum.

Some of this involves maintaining appropriate boundaries, which either the Ex or stepmum can be lacking on occasion or more often in some cases.

am a highly articulate person in RL. Yet even I fail to find the words to describe just how hard I find being around my DP's DC. I'm not jealous of them, I'm not a bad person, I'm secure in myself. But I'm surprised at how many posters on here seem to empathise with just how hard this is and how many relationships dangle by a thread as a result.
I feel exactly the same (& noted the don't ).
To be honest @TooSassy I don't know if we'll stay together. Up until this past year I remained optimistic & would have said to anyone that I'd fight for 'us' but at the moment I feel like I've just run out of steam.
I love him so much & I know he's trying to put & keep boundaries in place but his ex keeps reeling him in via the kids & I honestly feel like there's 6 people in our relationship - me, dp, his exw & his 3 kids. I feel like my poor kids are just on the sidelines getting on with their lives, & stuck with a mother who's mind is full of other people. It's not fair on them.

I'm lying in bed stewing tonight as dp .has yet again spent the evening in a bad mood due to things going on his exw & kids .
Like others if I were to do it again I would NEVER get together with a man with kids - it's just not worth it. Tbh I'm pretty worn out by it & miss the me I was before I let all this crap into my life.

In regards the ex being bitter about the partner moving on and being in a new relationship even though they left them... I left my ex. I didn't leave him because I didn't care about him or was happy to get rid of him after having my babies. I wanted more than anything to make it work but after years of being lied to about his spending, dealing with his laziness, and feeling that I was just dealing with a third child, I just couldn't it any more.

What I felt when he had a new partner? Initially nothing. Then I did feel a bit of jealousy. Why was it that he, who had treated me badly was the one who got to be happy again, the one got to forget about his responsibility as a father and enjoy his freedom whilst I was struggling to cope with being a Ln almost ft mum.

What really brought 'drama' though as it is refer here is all the lies he told her about me, our relationship etc... He told her a story that made him come across as a victim of an over controlling woman, and the worse a woman who was stopping him from a full relationship with his children when from the start, he was never much involved, leaving all the hard work to me, the getting up in the night, the early mornings, the tears and illnesses even though I too worked FT. When we separated it was HIM who refused to have them overnight and was happy to only have them for a few hours on Saturday afternoon.

When they got together though a few years later, he couldn't wait to play happy family with her and suddenly demanded to have the kids more often, although still only when it suited him and when I didn't jump to agree to his demands, I became, certainly in her eyes, the bitter ex. Of course, the fact that he wasn't paying maintenance, always coming up with excuses and lies, didn't help but again, I'm pretty sure this is something he kept from her.

Things got better when 1. I took a step back and reduced communication to next to the bare minimum and stopped fighting for any maintenance and 2. When she herself realised he wasn't the perfect man he portrayed to be. They broke up quite a few times before their love for each other got them together for good but after that, her attitude towards me changed and as she was great with the kids and never overstepped her role trying to be a parent to them, I started to like her indirectly.

Ultimately I had build her picture of her wrong and so had she, but I think that was because of my ex make her believe he was the dad that he really had never been up to that point.

The drama was indeed horrible, I hated it as much as I'm sure they did. In the end, it's me who abdicated and agreed to everything he demanded because I couldn't cope with the idea of my kids being damaged in the middle. Looking back, I'm glad I did as ultimately I know that I did the best for my children rather than for myself.

What strikes me reading through the posts is that many exw's (myself included) while acknowledging we may have felt betrayed/bitter/worried about our kids etc. were actually able to step back & deal with our exes as co parents and nothing more.
I think what a lot of the sms who post here (myself included) experience is the exw whose good sense & love for her kids hasn't kicked in; the exw who is still emotionally in the old marriage/relationship.
Swing like you I would have aimed to minimize the drama between myself & my ex. Dp's ex does nothing of the sort as the drama gets dp engaged with her.
I also totally agree with swing that exh's often fuel the drama by being less than honest. I know now that my exh told his now dw that our marriage was over (hadn't bothered to tell me this lol). She's a nice lady & her family - most of whom I've met - are lovely people & I actually don't think she thought she was having an affair iyswim. Exh then spent months telling me they were dating & not serious (at this point I didn't know they'd been seeing each other before he had left me), all the while not understanding why I was furious she was spending so much time with the kids. Again she thought they were in a relationship & serious enough to meet his kids but he was telling me something different which left me wondering why my kids were spending all their dad time with someone he was only dating!
On the other hand when I met dp he said nothing negative about his exw. As time went on I began to notice things about the effect of their interactions on him. Eventually he told me the truth & when I asked him why he hadn't told me before he said he didn't want to be that guy who badmouths the mother of his kids. Very commendable but it meant that I was almost a year into the relationship before I understood the full extend of how mean & disruptive she can be. Now that I know & dp is more open with me I can honestly say that he doesn't cause the drama but he fuels it by engaging with her which is exactly what she wants.
At the start of September we had 3 weeks of non stop phone calls about one of his kids' activities. She'd ring to say she didn't like the other kids there, she didn't like the coaches, she was moving him, she wasn't moving him, should he do another activity, no she'd leave him there, what if he gets hurt, what did dp think, what should she do. It didn't matter what dp said she'd be back phoning the next day with another worry - on & on & on it went until I eventually snapped & pointed out to dp that my ex & I have less communication over our DD's health & upcoming consultant appointments (she's absolutely fine but has a congenital thing that needs monitoring) than he & his ex were having over a forking (you know what I mean here ) kids B football team!!!
Dp admits he engages way too much but she uses the kids (as above) & if he ignore her the phone calls & txts kick off about him not caring & abandoning his kids!
I find this so hard to deal with & I do feel that if myself & other dms can get our shit together & get on with things why can't she & others like her?
I find it really sad that the good that is my love for dp & his for me has also brought this craziness into my life & into the lives of my kids.

It's very true Magda and I've know exes who indeed instead of letting the drama go seems to relish in it in that they feel a need to be vindicated by proving that they've always been right about their ex's failings.

I suppose if you are going to leave someone you constantly need to be reassured that you indeed did the right thing and therefore continue to find faults.

What is even more disturbing is when this behaviour continues after being with a new partner but that is when new partners on either sides getting involves almost always inevitably fuel even more drama unless they can take a step back and become the peace maker.

Just to add that I think in many circumstances, drama is often fuel by a deep seeded sense of personal injustice on both sides.

Tbh I'm pretty worn out by it & miss the me I was before I let all this crap into my life.

I feel like my poor kids are just on the sidelines getting on with their lives, & stuck with a mother who's mind is full of other people. It's not fair on them.

All of this Magda, all of this I could have written and more. FWIW, my DP is currently my ExDP. I am utterly broken by it all and have said I cannot do any of this anymore. I just feel that it is time to refocus my time and energies on positive things, happy things and make memories with my DC. My biggest fear is waking up in 5 years and thinking 'I missed 5 years of making amazing memories with my DC because I was so consumed with his drama'.

I feel utterly heartbroken and so sad. And I miss him. I told him he and his EXW deserved each other.

Oh I am so sorry to hear it, TooSassy

Swing I completely agree. The drama is magnified by both sides, because 9 times out of 10, the drama is around the children. And our children are our worlds. So the emotions involved are very strong.
I find your perspective of what our DP's spin vs. what may be the reality also very interesting.

banana I find your posts so insightful and helpful.

Sandy I agree with you, not all people are bitter because of those feelings, of course not. Just as much as I'm asking for more compassion on these threads, I think everyone deserves compassion and understanding. Including mothers who now have SM's / partners of their exes effectively becoming another important person in their DC's lives. BUT there does absolutely need to be an understanding that for SOME ExH/ ExW, this bitterness tips into behaviours that fundamentally make lives for the SP's in their DC's worlds, VERY difficult.

Stuffedpeppers, your comment is really interesting. I read on here of some very small things which escalate into massive issues and I struggle to see why. THAT's exactly my point. For me, sometimes I felt as though as I was going CRAZY over a something so small and insignificant. But now I have taken a step back, I can see that it is the volume and constancy of the small layered on top of the bigger issues going on behind the scenes that can break a SP.

So as I said further up the thread, by the time a SP appears on this thread, they are, quite possible, broken, overwhelmed, tired and have 'run out of steam' (to quote you magda). So the smallest of things makes them say 'enough'.

@TooSassy - you have my absolutely sympathy & I'm really sorry to hear what you're going through.
Did your (ex)dp have any come back when you told him you just can't do it anymore? Or is he just resigned to his ex dictating his life?

magda he is asking that I don't end things and hold on until the current proceedings around contact conclude. He thinks this will alleviate the stress we are under.

But my problem is him. This has been going on now for years and what he doesn't realise is that this whole drama has become his normal. How could it not have done? The whole situation is thoroughly unhealthy and negative. There is nothing happy, positive or fun around it. It is the antithesis to my home environment which thrives on openness, happiness, minimal drama.

And he simply, as a result, cannot prioritise me in the way I want to be prioritised, unless I fight for it. I don't want the phone constantly checked for messages. I don't want you to look at your phone after we have a lovely dinner out and see you looking at photos of your kids because you miss them. Thats our precious time, and suddenly I know you're feeling sad. Well, I get you miss your kids, but I'm right next to you, here and we've had a lovely evening, why are you bringing us down.

And thats the sort of unnatural reaction these situations create. Why shouldn't he look at his photos of his kids on his phone if he wants to? I logically know it shouldn't matter in the slightest. But when you emotionally feel that your whole life is consumed by the drama around the DC, something like that triggers a reaction of 'enough! can we not even have a few hours free of you not f'ing thinking about it and getting sad!'.

I don't want to be that person in that relationship. I don't want to have to fight to be seen. His unhealthy dynamic has permeated my world completely and I just don't see him ever changing. Because he can't see the problem.

There is no shortage of love and as I think about the next few weeks / months and how hard I know this will be, it fills me with dread. But the thought of this being the rest of my life? That fills me with utter horror. I don't want to live with this and that is what I am hoping I will keep telling myself and stay strong in the decision I have made.

And I should also add, that who am I to tell him when he can/ cannot be sad? It's an incredible arrogant position to take. But it is so very hard to be with someone, where so much of their time, energy, emotions etc are wrapped up on proceedings that are so animosity filled.

Neither one of us is winning. I think he needs to find someone who has more capacity to be more giving, patient, nurturing and understanding. Someone who maybe doesn't want what I want. All I do know is that I can no longer work with what he's giving me and I have completely and utterly run out of anymore energy/ love/ support that I can give.

I agree with everything you've said. I too get torn between thinking I've no right to an opinion on how dp feels & thinking that I'm only human & that I have needs too.
You describe very well your dp's inability to manage the situation & that is also what I struggle with.
I have a close family member who is now in his late 50's. His first marriage & subsequent divorce was dreadfully acrimonious. He remarried & has two more kids but his entire adult life has been dictated by drama & issues surrounding his 'first family' - I'm talking 30 plus years. He never managed any of it & I honestly don't know how his second wife stuck with him through it all - she was treated appallingly by his first two children - she has imo the patience of a saint.
He is now a broken man - his exw & adult kids have ridden off into the sunset & now barely acknowledge him. He's broke from years of payouts & moving around the country following the exw who took off with the kids every few years. He had a major breakdown & suicide attempt last year & it truly was it all catching up with him. I'm not saying he was blameless in any of it, but his major fault was that he facilitated the drama & never stood up to the exw.
I sometimes look at dp & wonder does he realize that he's pissing away the good times by not getting a handle on any of this? And, is he going to be hitting 60 all on his own because I'm not sure I or any other woman could put up with it!
I was full of life when I met him. I had great drive & get up & go & I really missed him when he was with his kids for the weekend. Now I'm nearly pushing him out the door on those weekends just so I can get some headspace & have conversations with people who aren't stressed & mopey all the time.
I know I sound really unsympathetic.

I sometimes look at dp & wonder does he realize that he's pissing away the good times by not getting a handle on any of this?

This a million times over. I have said so many times. You can choose to miss what you don’t have and be consumed by that. Or be present and recognise who and what you do have in your life. And if you choose not to do the latter, you risk me and my DC not being there anymore.

Then what will you miss? Only then will you realise what you had and it will be too late.

You don’t sound remotely sympathetic. You sound identical to where I am. I couldn’t imagine living with that 24/7. It must drain all the positive energy out of you. I’m so sorry.

And these are the stories that don’t get told on these boards. These are the problems that are happening in many homes.

Could you imagine my starting a post. ‘I get so annoyed when my DP looks at photos of his DC on his phone!’

I’d be villified. Jealous. Your DP is better off without you. If that’s how you feel when he looks at the photos, what must it be like when your poor DSC are there.

But the complete unnatural reaction is from the completely unnatural situation surrounding the EW and DC.

So very sad.

Sorry you don’t sound unsympathetic

This is a really interesting discussion as it does seem SMs are treated very unfairly on mumsnet

I don't want my DPs kids here all the time and if given a choice I would not have them any extra in 'our time'. I have my own family with DP and I have a right to enjoy that without the other kids being there.

i dont think step mums are treated unfairly - too often there is a drip feed on threads and when the posting is not going the way they want people to think - the attacks on the DCS, EX, manners, food, school, education hygiene etc all start.

this method of posting gets peoples backs up. Some of the threads where every one SM or not is united in their disbelief as to how an adult could be have can also be the most vitriolic .

Sometimes it is not what is said but how it is said and this can be miscontrued.

Despite what everyone says - there are OWs as SMs, there are bitch Ex wives, there are nice SMs, nice exes, awful DPd, disney Dads and bitch step motheres - they are all there concentrated in a small forum where someone is experiencing one of the above.

Op, my heart goes out to you. What a sad turn of events.
There is a lot of heart ache and strife on this board from mums and step mums. I can understand how hard it would be for a mum to have another woman become part of her children's lives.
But I get so wound up about the phrase you knew what you were getting yourself into.
Well from my perspective I didn't at all... my dp and I tried to do it all the right way so I didn't meet his kids until I was 8 almost 9 months in, and by then it was too late, I had fallen in love. I don't have any children of my own and my situation is slightly different to the majority of posters as I live with my 2 step children full time. It's a huge culture clash to be thrown into parenting when you've not had any of the lead up to it, I met them fully formed little people at 8 and 9. There were so many problems and issues, my dp loved his children so much but he was in over his head. His dd didn't respect him and she had lots of issues. His ds is severely disabled and gets more challenging by the day. I have always put those children first and I've done parenting courses, meetings, worked with parent support and thrown myself into supporting my dsd to understand personal hygiene, to help her with anxiety, anger issues and temper tantrums. I've been beaten up by dss and kept awake by his noise and irregular sleep patterns. If I've complained about hard it was, it was only on here. And then this place almost broke me several times because I worried that this is what everyone thought of me whilst I was trying so damn hard every day.
I am so conscious of how I as a step mother am imposing and interfering in children's lives that didn't want or ask for me. I worry all the time about the days when I get it thrown in my face. And even more I worry that one day I might have a child and everything I have forced myself unnaturally to do, the sacrifices, lack of sleep, the emotional rollercoaster, the enormous amount of money children cost, the appointments and using all my annual leave on holidays to give my dp some back up... will be eclipsed.
I don't suppose any of us know how to do it right with another woman's children. It's mind boggling.

Maybe posts like the one by ‘socksortights ‘ doesn’t promote goodwill towards stepmums. Reading a lot of comments from SMS on here makes us ex-ws appreciate there is distress and upset on both sides, but I’m afraid to comment that you want to enjoy being with your dp with your own DCs but minus his, is something I just can’t sympathise with. A deeply unpleasant comment.

I’m so sorry @toosassy - that it has got to that point with your DP. You’ve really tried, but there is a line isn’t there. Particularly poignant is your line about not wanting to lose wonderful memories with your own kids, by being sunk and subsumed under the huge drama of a draining first family.

Sorry @magda too, I don’t blame you at all. The Ex has muscled her way into your relationship with the sheer volume of contact, neediness and attention seeking. It calls your DP away from spending it with you, and it doesn’t sound like it is for the benefit of his kids at all either.

@herondale you sound utterly exhausted. It sounds like you’ve taken on a huge amount. If you’d been taking on adopting children you would have support, guidance. However it’s like you were thrown into deep water with no paddle or boat. I hope you get some help, it’s too much.

I totally get why a DP looking at pictures of his kids on the phone is upsetting, in your context toosassy. It’s because all the focus seems to be in what is going on with his kids - there isn’t room for your own relationship together anymore. He’s not just looking at pictures and sharing those with you, in a happy way.

Me and DP lived with his kids, and we had one precious holiday when I was pregnant. Just for a few days in Italy. On the nicest warm evening we had a meal in a square, and he was distant and wistful the whole meal. He literally kept looking off into the square. He eventually admitted that he was just so sad that he didn’t have his children there. I felt like a big hole had opened up and I felt very lonely. The one time I needed just DP for me. I’d also left my older child in his Dads care, yet I had room for him and his kids.

I really don’t think he, his ex or his kids ever made any room for me and my child. So I do get it. Me and DP never went away, even for a weekend, ever again. I actually wish I’d left the relationship sooner except that we had a child together.

It IS such a waste. All the unnecessary drama and conflict, ultimately leading to the new relationships breaking up. It’s no wonder that statistics say most second marriages (where there are previous children) don’t last. My DP never said anything bad about his Ex. So like you @magda I just thought, bingo! A great man, who gets in well with his Ex, fantastic father, I liked his kids, they seemed to like me... I was living with him and committed before everything began to unravel...

I know my DP is heartbroken at the crumbling of our relationship. I sometimes worry that me moving out with our son will break him. His older daughters are increasingly off into their own lives. His oldest DDs and his Ex still give him a hard time, and he just gives in. I don’t think he has any idea of what’s fair and right anymore. He can’t see how I’ve been scapegoated at all, or the pressure it has put on our relationship. He can’t equate how 6am calls from his Ex demanding he talks to her, or his oldest DD refusing to visit the house while I’m there - have a direct negative impact on us. So because he can’t manage it, and protect me and my kids, I have to remove all of us.

That’s one of the saddest things.

I'm really sorry too TooSassy. Your posts make complete sense. What I like about them is that you are able to see things from all perspectives and accept the validity of all of them, the issue is the fact they just can't seem to reconcile even with some compromises.

I can't remember how old your SCs are. I think there are two clear stages of frustration with SCs. When there smaller, it is often the drama with the exes and the place they therefore take in the SM's world. What surprise me with some posts is that this still to be the case when kids become older. As said before, a big turning point for me was when I stopped almost all communication with my ex and instead allow my eldest to take responsibility for arranging things with her. If she could use a mobile to talk and make plans with her friends she could do the same with her father. So by the time she was 11, she did so and it worked well. I still wanted to scream at times, but it was much easier to not let it grow into drama. DD coped very well, I think she find it easier emotionally anyway.

The ne t stage of difficulty though is when they turn teenagers and become aliens. Frankly I have found my kids difficult to love at times so can imagine how it must be for SPs. I don't get annoyed when I read a SM moan about her step kids. I think then that she should join the teenage forum. What does get to me is when they impliy that they are a bad person for it, automatically blaming the ex for the teenager turning into such an umpleasant creature and insinuating that their kids would never be like that because they are brought up with proper disciplining. These SMs often have younger kids. To be fair, if someone had shown me a film of my DS now when he was 8 or 9 and a lovely boy, I would have said no way that would be him at 15!

Some teenagers go through this stage with much greater difficulties and express it in a dispairing way. However unpleasant, it does t make them abnormal people doomed for a failed future all because of a clueless mother and helpless father. There are many such teenagers and although some won't get out of it, most will and will turn into lovely adults as unexpectedly as they turned into shallow teenagers.

Socksorttight, your entitled to your feelings and expressing them honestly here. What I don't get is why you think you have a RIGHT to enjoy life with your OH and kids excluding his children above the kids' rights to have quality time with their father without feeling unwelcome, or your oh's rights to include all his children in what he considers his family. Why would your rights tromps that of the others? To be, that's the exact example of selfishness indeed. I hope that your feelings are not used to put pressure on your OH to reject his kids in favour for your needs and that hopefully what you haven't said is that you've managed to find a compromise so that everyone can feel that their emotional needs are met.

I remember when my kids first started going to their dad's for weekends and it was horrible. I'd be home alone & lonely. This then became worse when exh's partner came on the scene. There were times when it was truly excruciating.
However, I managed to get myself to the point where I'd use my free weekends to catch up with friends, movies etc., or just relish the peace & quiet.
I think most of us understand missing kids but again it's some people's inability to manage their feelings that becomes the problem.
I think kids then pick up on all of this which doesn't help with their acceptance of the new dynamic; ie mum/dad are not happy so his can this situation be a good thing.
And I don't think any sm who dislikes this behaviour is being selfish - everyone in a relationship is entitled to one on one time with a fully present partner.
And yet again I just think way too much is expected of sms. The constant tone on this forum is that sfs should not spend too much time with their sdc & should spend plenty of time with their own dc who are inevitably far more affected by everything than his sdc. Yet sms are flayed if they say their dc are missing out or being sidelined because the sdc are getting way too much attention & that an unhealthy dynamic which may still exist within the first family is infecting everything.
I can only speak from personal experience but I am definitely more down in myself since dp & I got serious. When we were dating he was in great form & I honestly couldn't believe my luck. But as soon as we took the relationship to the next level & his kids & exw came on the scene so to speak, it has been a gradual decline in both out moods & an increase in both our stress levels.

And @swing you're v right about the teenage stuff.
Dp's kids are all between 12 & 18. They are introverted, immature, selfish & one is particularly sullen. Their day to day behaviour is definitely being indulged by their dm as she treats them like princes & they can do no wrong in her eyes.
But dp is in a tailspin over their development & cannot see that irrespective of who their dm is they'd most like be like this anyway. Having taken steps back in the past he's now back trying to control what goes on in her house which he has no right to do imo. I keep telling him he can only parent his way on his time & that hopefully the influence of him, extended family, school & peers will counterbalance her indulging the worst of the teen behaviour - but he just can't see this.