How much can the other parent dictate in the name of "routine".

[WhippinPiccadilly1]

I'll try to keep this short, but it won't be easy!

Boyfriend has a 14 month old. Not with her mother at the time of birth. He's been involved with her from day one, despite a lot of resistance from her mum. Her mum physically attacked him while holding her a few months ago, leading to him having to go to court because she wanted full control of all aspects of their daughter. To give you some examples, he wasn't allowed to feed, change, or soothe her. He wasn't allowed to cuddle her. Nor put her down for naps. He was allowed to watch her, and play with her.

So, he's now at the point of court orders. He has her 3 times a week, currently at 4 hours. It will be rising to 50/50.

He instigated a contact book, which was for important child centred information only. He asked for details of her doctor, health visitor, any medication she was on, and any concerns regarding her health or development that he wasn't already aware of. All that was refused.

The book has now been used approximately 9 times. Every single time the control side is worsening. Examples are: needing to know exactly what she has eaten, and quantities, telling him not to bath her because it's her routine to do it at bedtime (she had been sick and mum knew it!), telling him he must use a cover all bib and a highchair to feed her as that's her "routine", must use a forward facing car seat because that's what she has at home. Insisting he use papmers nappies, asda baby wipes, a chemist only brand of nappy cream...

I could go on. He is stuck in the crossfire of what is reasonable. He is concerned the court may feel he doesn't have her best interests at heart of he goes against any of mum's orders.

I have my own opinion, but I keep it to myself. I'm interested to hear others opinions on where the lines should be drawn, and how others have dealt with this kind of thing.

I have no similar experience, but can she really dictate brands of nappies and wipes?? He sounds like a great dad at contact, and from what you've said she has no reasons for not wanting other brands to be used other than to be awkward.

Unless it's a medical issue I would expect the df to parent as he sees fit.
A judge will tell her to stfu I would also expect.

I have no experience of this but just to say about the nappies & cream etc my DS can only tolerate Aldi nappies & metanium cream so there may be reasoning behind that but the mum does sound very controlling.

Hopefully someone will be along with more advice for you but how does he feel about all this?

Does she react to other nappies ? When's the contact increasing ?

50/50 with a child so young? No wonder there is conflict. Imagine losing your small child for half the time, particularly to someone you were at loggerheads with.

That said, she can’t dictate what happens on dad’s contact time. It is worth noting that routine is considered important, however, for young children so I wouldn’t deliberately work against it. Nappies/wipes can be problematic from a rashes point of view so changing them frequently is probably not desireable but not something the courts would be interested in if there is no obvious reaction. Wearing a coverall bib is sensible, particularly if he is feeding her orange food she is getting everywhere and clothes are being ruined - has he thought about that at all? She may feel it is deliberate. A highchair is also sensible for choking issues and at 14 months, she is not going to be able to reach the table unless propped on lots of cushions (safety issue?). Are you sure she is not just trying to ensure her child is safe? A bit over-protective, perhaps, rather than trying to dictate how things should be?

This rings a bell. The dad holding the baby in soft play and the mum attacking him when she wanted the baby back.

There doesn't seem to be anything unreasonable in the mother's routine. Your bf only had her a few hours a week so it's not like he has to buy truckloads of Pampers.

If and when it goes to 50/50 maybe worry about nappy brands then.

Thanks for the responses! Her reasoning from what I've been told (although I have seen it written down, so no reason to disbelieve!) is that other stuff is shit... She hasn't stated there's a specific issue. He's asked, and had no answer. She simply wrote the list of things he should use, because the other things are shit.

He knows she gets the pampers from her dad as he managers a factory that produces them. But no idea over the wipes or cream.

Contact is increasing after the next court hearing. It had been increasing week on week, up to the week of the final hearing. However it has been adjourned due to the little ones social worker being off sick. It was supposed to have progressed to overnights in 5 weeks time. However without the report, it's stuck at where they're at. They didn't make a plan for the point between 4 hours and overnights. So he's stuck in limbo.

I remember you posting about your boyfriend and his baby before. At that stage weren't you saying he had reported her mother to social services and was trying to get full custody?

What makes him think he'll get 50/50? Is that already court ordered or just what he hopes?

For a baby, routine is everything, and some babies have sensitivities to different brands, so it seems sensible to update on the routine for the four hours he has her, as well as sticking to the familiar brands. At least with the notebook then if the requests are blatantly ridiculous then it will be well recorded for court. But even if the requests are OTT, it may well not be motivated by control, but by worry about the baby while in the care of her father who doesn't even look after her overnight. I'm married to my baby's father and trust him implicitly, but when he was first looking after him when I returned to work I left a lot of instructions, and parents do the same thing with nursery and babysitters too.

Either way, the absolute best thing for the baby is that her parents communicate as well as possible and work together. The notebook sounds like a good way to do that since they've wound each other up a lot in the past. (He refused to give the baby back to her, right, so then she tried to get the baby back and he felt she assaulted him and reported her to police and SS, IIRC?)

Not just me then somerville.

I completely agree, that she must let him parent his own child much much more than she has been so far but I would strongly urge him not to push for 50-50 too quickly, if at all. I do understand why he wants this, but I'm not convinced that it is in the best interests of his daughter and he does need to put the needs of his daughter before his own, however hard that is for him.

Routine is very important for children this age (and for a good few years to come) so she's not being as ridiculous as she might seem. I would try to comply as much as is reasonable but feel able to be flexible when necessary e.g. with the extra bath which she did not need to be informed about. I would scrap the contact book as she isn't using it in a mutually useful way but only on her own terms.

All sounds quite reasonable to me rather than controlling. If its what the child is used to surely its in her best interests to continue. I would definitely want to know what and how much my child had eaten and I also only use certain products as others cause a rash. I think you should stay well out of it and let them organise parenting the child between themselves.

At the time we weren't in a relationship, but I've posted about it.

Those specific recollections are incorrect. I had to pull the thread because it was full of people putting their own spin on whatever was posted. It wasn't helpful to anyone.

The upshot of it was mum was sent on an offenders course as the cctv was shown to her, and she eventually admitted to it.

The section 7 report recommends 50/50 once the relationship between dad and daughter has been formed. The report had a detailed plan of how it would be achieved. Overnights were to commence this May. But it needed the social worker to observe some contacts to ensure the little one was happy with her dad before it progressed to that point. As the social worker is off sick, it can't currently progress until they decide the SW will be back in a reasonable time frame, or allocate a new SW.

I've posted today in step parenting, for advice from others who have been through this, and are aware of what the court will see as reasonable. He's very keen not to become "fun dad", he just wants to be a normal parent, doing the day to day parenting thing. But he doesn't want to be told he has to put her in a certain bib (he changes her clothes in to 'old' clothes when with him as he does messy play, going to the swings etc and he knows her mum will not be happy with any mark to her clothes - so he uses his. Therefore it doesn't matter if he uses a roll neck scoop bib, or cover all).

Before anyone asks, no I'm not involved in contact. I'm just sitting on the sidelines and providing emotional support in what appears a very difficult situation. I'm also the mother on the other side of the situation so am fully aware of how she may feel.

He asked for 50/50 with a 6 month gradual build up. It is looking like the delay will mean it will be 7-8 months of build up.

He has good reasons for wanting 50/50, and he's available to do it. He works 30 hours over 3 set days a week. He can definitely make it work.

I think we all remember your original post and generally it was felt that you were very over involved, and here you are again. You were not "involved" with him at the time of that incident, yet were there, so you can hardly have been seeing this man any length of time, but are involved in the minutiae of contact and childcare.

You ask if any of us have been though similar. Yes I have. After my separation my ex's partner has stirred trouble constantly. It has meant several years on that he wont speak to me directly about anything to do with our DC and I cant bear either of them. Her interfering made a bad situation even worse. So I really would politely but firmly suggest you distance yourself until everyone is sorted and happy with arrangements for the little one.

Regarding the contact book. I first heard about these through a SPIP course from another participant. I thought it sounded an excellent idea. The family court judge disagreed and told me that it was often a source of trouble. I should say no-one else (apart from my ex husband who refused to use it) agreed - that is CAFCASS, counselors, school etc who all thought it was a good idea. Nowt so queer as folk and unaccountable family court judges.

He can definitely make it work

Which is great for him. Not automatically great for such a young child. I know my middle child went through a period of 50/50 when he was aged 2 to 3 and our relationship is lacking (he is now 13). I have always felt some of our bond was lost as a result and I am seeing it more and more as he gets older. He idolises his dad in a very unhealthy way (he is not a nice man) and I know the next few years are going to be hard.

Be careful and be a voice of reason. Children need strong attachments to both parents to feel secure, not half an attachment to both parents, if that makes sense? I am not sure how one is secured over the other but based on our experiences, I would fight 50/50 before the age of 5/6.

I wasn't there. I stated I wasn't there. I'm not sure why you are implying otherwise.

And as I have just said above, I am not involving myself. Her partner has chosen to, but I have chosen not to as I have my own children to consider.

I'm quite happy with where my position is. That's "unknown" to her. She isn't aware of him being in a relationship.

Please don't make assumptions about my position or involvement. I've already stated it above.

As a mum yourself can you empathise with how emotional it will be for your boyfriend's ex, having gone through pregnancy and childbirth and the newborn stage on her own, to be told that in 6 months she will only have her baby for half of the time?? I'd be devastated by that - I think a lot of mothers would. And it's unusual also, too; I know many 50/50 families but all of them are where parents were sharing care before they split up. Not going from zero care by father to 50/50 in a scant 6 months; his ex may well get a lot of inquisitiveness and even judgments from people who can't understand why she's losing her baby half of each week.
So with that context, of course she'll be emotional about it and wanting to make sure the babies father is going to look after their daughter really, really well, and that as much is familiar for their daughter as possible.
If he really wants to dig his heels in and not use a bib (what?? Why??) or the same brand of nappies then he seems rather shortsighted - it's surely in the interest of his daughter to continue with her established routine?
There is 17 years of shared parenting ahead, and the sooner they manage to co-parent properly the better. You getting involved won't help with that, but I think you know that already.

Ohreally, yes I have a similar issue with my eldest. I really don't feel the bond is as secure as it should be. It breaks my heart. It isn't his dad's fault though in my case. It was because I worked full time and my mum looked after him while I worked. He was 6-11 when that was the case.

From the evidence I've seen so far, he appears to have his daughters best interests at heart. He has many times questioned if he is making the right decision. And he has said if it isn't working he will never stick his heels in.

For example, on his first contact when he drove away with their daughter, he sent her a very kindly worded text, with a picture of their daughter fast asleep 10 minutes after he left with her to reassure her that she was settled. He said he knew this was hard for her, but he would always do what is best for their daughter, at his own expense and would return her if she was distressed. He said it was hard right now, but it would get easier for them all over time.

He got back a massive rant over how he had let her scream herself to sleep.

He's tried very hard to be reasonable. He's agreed to every change in timing of the contacts. He could have been an arse and insisted on the court order being followed. But he hasn't.

The issue isn't the bib. He uses a bib. The issue is how much she is allowed to dictate before it just becomes unreasonable.

She states their daughter only drinks vimto. He's given her water, which she drinks. It's just those kind of things he wonders if he's even allowed to make his own decisions. He wants her in extended rear facing as he's seen it in my car, and researched for himself. Mum wants her forward facing. He asked if there was a particular reason for it and was screamed at "because she's not a fucking baby you idiot". (This is her every day communication - hence why the book is now in use).

DD needed a certain brand of nappies and wipes or she would have awful rashes..think angry red,bleeding rashes. That's why we discovered a certain cream as well that actually worked wonders.
Highchair is all about the baby's safety. Where does he plan to feed her? Table ? Walker?

The bib is slightly OTT but it's possible it's all just a case of this is what works well and what she's used to so keep doing it.

Even if she is as awful as you say,for whatever reason, antagonising her and going against her issues unless really necessary won't help the relationship between them or between him and the child.

There's no point in making things worse just because you can /she can't dictate x,y,z.

I haven't read the previous threads, but on the face of it I can see why the mother would be anxious about her child's welfare. She will be losing her for 50% of the time very soon, while the child is still very, very young. That will be devastating. Please cut her some slack.

I am very surprised, actually, that SS/court have deemed it in the child's best interests to go 50/50 at such a young age (particularly where the parents have never lived together), which is critical for development of emotional well-being, including attachment. Is your partner absolutely sure that this is in his child's best interests? Like I said, I don't know the back story, but at first blush this arrangement is worrying, as it has a high potential to seriously affect the child's development. I would urge him to read up on early child development to get an understanding of what is optimum, and what is damaging for the child's development. A good place to start on this is 'Why Love Matters' by Sue Gerhardt.

OP,
Good luck to your BF and the obviously very controlling Mother of the child.

I've no idea why some Mothers believe they have full control of a child and the father has no rights.

Your BF sounds a lovely person and Father.

I wish you both lots of luck, as you're going to need it with the controlling Mother.

He has a highbacked booster attached to a chair, sat at the table. He lives in a flat, so space is a premium. She doesn't know he has this though.

He's asked for the information if she has a problem with certain things. She won't answer. I refer to the earlier point of her just saying everything else is shit.

@ShovingLeopard

The Mother attacked the Father whilst holding the child.