How much can the other parent dictate in the name of "routine".

[WhippinPiccadilly1]

I'll try to keep this short, but it won't be easy!

Boyfriend has a 14 month old. Not with her mother at the time of birth. He's been involved with her from day one, despite a lot of resistance from her mum. Her mum physically attacked him while holding her a few months ago, leading to him having to go to court because she wanted full control of all aspects of their daughter. To give you some examples, he wasn't allowed to feed, change, or soothe her. He wasn't allowed to cuddle her. Nor put her down for naps. He was allowed to watch her, and play with her.

So, he's now at the point of court orders. He has her 3 times a week, currently at 4 hours. It will be rising to 50/50.

He instigated a contact book, which was for important child centred information only. He asked for details of her doctor, health visitor, any medication she was on, and any concerns regarding her health or development that he wasn't already aware of. All that was refused.

The book has now been used approximately 9 times. Every single time the control side is worsening. Examples are: needing to know exactly what she has eaten, and quantities, telling him not to bath her because it's her routine to do it at bedtime (she had been sick and mum knew it!), telling him he must use a cover all bib and a highchair to feed her as that's her "routine", must use a forward facing car seat because that's what she has at home. Insisting he use papmers nappies, asda baby wipes, a chemist only brand of nappy cream...

I could go on. He is stuck in the crossfire of what is reasonable. He is concerned the court may feel he doesn't have her best interests at heart of he goes against any of mum's orders.

I have my own opinion, but I keep it to myself. I'm interested to hear others opinions on where the lines should be drawn, and how others have dealt with this kind of thing.

The thing is OP, you started with bibs and wipes which sound like pretty reasonable requests- a lots of people have favoured brands that they know work for their baby.
Now you do a massive drip feed about the mother only wanting her drinking Vimto. So far from a sensible request that it's like something from a comedy sketch about shit single mothers. His ex must be Vicky Pollard

The issue, though, isn't how much she is allowed to dictate before it becomes unreasonable. If he really thinks that then he's still in an adversarial state of mind, and not well motivated as a parent. As much as he clearly dislikes his ex, she knows their daughter and he needs to learn. He should be going along with everything that might help his daughter - for example if he uses different wipes to the ones documented and she has a reaction then it won't be good for her. But clearly where where her mother is advising something totally contrary to nutritional guidllines like feeding her Vimto, he can ignore that in favour of giving her water and milk so her teeth don't rot. It's common sense really.

I just gave examples in my OP. The vimto isn't the issue. It's just another example. He simply needs to figure out what he can and can't ignore. He wants to get it right. Which is why I'm asking in a place where others have been through this before.

Thanks for the advice. Off to bed, when I next see him, I'll show him the thread. I think it will help him see some different perspectives.

She isn't aware of him being in a relationship.

High backed booster... she doesn't know he has this though.

There's quite a lot she doesn't know, huh? That will lead to her being defensive and making a lot of recommendations, too. He should be honest and clear with her - and with Cafcass, surely he needed to disclose your relationship to them?

Also that text that you think is really nice sounds really patronising to me. I understand why that caused her further emotional distress - he told her he would always do what is best for the baby... while reporting her mother to social services and police, and taking her to court for shared custody. She clearly disagrees that her baby being away from her mother for half of her life is what is best for her, so hearing him say that just rubs salt into the wound.

But these people both sound like they are unable to put their emotions aside to co-parent their baby. I feel so sorry for the little girl. I think this will be a shitshow for a loooong time. (In terms of your relationship OP, do you see a future? He's going to have one day off work/parenting a baby per fortnight. Not much time for a social life. And there will be a lot of drama too, with this all going to and fro court for years.)

I really don't feel the bond is as secure as it should be. It breaks my heart. It isn't his dad's fault though in my case. It was because I worked full time and my mum looked after him while I worked. He was 6-11 when that was the case

With all due respect, it is not the same to have your child in childcare or with family and then return to him/her when you are not working as it is to not have access at all to your child for 50% of available time. A very different scenario.

latte that's obviously not good, though still we don't know the back story (well I don't, anyway). A mother who is prone to violent outbursts, and is unable to regulate emotions, is a different proposition to one who has been abused for years and finally reached the end of her tether, for example (not saying that's what happened here).

I still can't understand the 50/50 thing though. If mum is deemed an unsuitable carer, why has she got any custody at all? The to-ing and fro-ing between households will do the child no good at all.

Hang on, you've not just posted about his very personal and unusual situation, but you're going to show him? I thought you'd decided to stay out of it?

Also, He knows she gets the pampers from her dad as he managers a factory that produces them. this is pretty identifying and that really isn't on.
One person sees this and recognises their situation and tells her, and things will get so much worse. Are you trying to stir things up or just not realising how big a readership MN has?

I hope you do show him the thread, there's been a lot of sense posted. I too am shocked at a 50/50 arrangement for such a young child.

I really hope your belief that he will get 50/50 is misguided. If he had his daughter's best interest at heart he wouldn't seek it. What are you getting out of this situation and watching him do this?

As ever on threads involving op's partners ex's - you mainly have his word only for what she's said or not said, done or not done unless you personally witness.

Nappies/wipes/cream - it's really common for babies to have allergies/sensitivities to certain products and it's a nightmare to then treat. My dd couldn't use ANY shop bought creams at all - horrific eczema flare up if anyone did. Children I cared for several had similar issues, though brands varied.

Bib - as a pp said certain food colours can basically tender clothes unusable. It may ALSO be if baby's skin is sensitive that food and drink remnants getting into folds of skin can cause irritation (I've seen this with my cousin as a baby)

High chair - perfectly normal at this age, could also relate to reflux, gas, choking...

Needing to know what she's eaten and quantities - again perfectly normal as a childminder this was standard info most parents wanted. So they can provide a balanced nutritional diet and know if child likely to be very hungry or not hungry for next meal.

Bath being part of bedtime - also normal - my dd couldn't have a bath every night due to her eczema but slept MUCH better on nights she had a bath just before bed. Some children this age really struggle to settle without a bath/if normal routine for bedtime disrupted.

Also you keep commenting how UNFAIR all this is for your bf - do you get it's not about him? Does he? 14 months is VERY young. My dd was 2 when I split from her dad, she didn't do overnights with him till she was 4 she wasn't ready until then and my ex (not the most reasonable person usually) agreed.

Routine is very important at this age - I had actually been planning to be a very relaxed non-routine led mum - dd was having NONE of it, especially age approx 1-3 if I deviated from the routine there was hell to pay - wouldn't eat, couldn't sleep, tantrums and upset more likely...

I find it VERY hard to believe you're a mother to be honest.

"He has good reasons for wanting 50/50" do ANY of them include him ACTUALLY thinking its best for his child?

And yes YOU are FAR too involved and overstepping boundaries. You shouldn't even be SEEING the child with him yet, you've not been together nearly long enough and HE should be focusing on his child and building the bond the sw is talking about. You DEFINITELY shouldn't be reading the contact book this child is none of your business!

"She isn't aware of him being in a relationship." That makes it WORSE not better - how can you not see that? You're involved in contact with this very young child and their mother doesn't even know you exist? What the hell are you thinking?!

Jesus butt out and stop stirring!

Couldn't agree more, Graphista

Has the Court given you permission to read the s7 report? It's not generally given to secret girlfriends the mother, CAFCASS officer and Court don't even know about.

Secret girlfriends whose partner is after shared care in particular.

Well said Graphista.

Wow Graphista.
Nice support there at the end of your message!
OP, that said, Graphista makes some good points.
Your partner needs to make his own decisions. Sometimes the mum’s demands will seem controlling and sometimes it will make sense to go with the flow. Eg he doesn’t yet have his daughter overnight so he doesn’t see if his changing regime does or doesn’t result in any nappy rash. Her mum has tried and tested products so why not go with the flow.
Vimto is obviously bonkers. Ignore that!
The book is a fundamentally good idea. Before my partner’s daughter started talking he (and I) would have loved some sharing on fav foods, routine etc.
But the book only works if there is two-way comms in it. And of course, if there is no trust between the parents, then the contents will get used as weapons sometimes.
I understand you being there in the background trying to support your partner as he finds his way - so you are of course perfectly entitled to come on here to find support.

I split with my DS’s dad when he was 6 months old. Even though we had been living together previously to that he had actually spent very little time with our DS due to work commitments.
When we split I was panicking and so incredibly upset and worried about how he was caring for him because in all honesty I felt like he didn’t know our DS.

Your DP has his DD 12 hours a week, only 12 hours a week!!! Why on earth wouldn’t he follow her mum’s routine? Does he not realise that Mum has her 6.5 days a week and it’s not only in DD’s best interests for him to keep a similar routine for her (i.e. bath before bed time) so she is calm and has stability, but it’s also in his best interests to follow her routine as it’s easier for him also?!

My ex initially did what your DP is doing. Whatever I said with regards to bed time, foods he could/liked to eat, toilet training etc he put up resistance and would accuse me of being controlling.
I wasn’t controlling I simply letting him know what was going on in his DS’s life when he wasn’t there so DS could continue as he has been all week but just with Dad for that time.

Even small changes in routine can massively unsettle such young children. Surely your DP if he’s going for shared care realises that it’s in his child’s best interests to keep things consistent between homes. He doesn’t even have her overnight yet, but when he does he needs to get his head around that. It’s not about him or his ex, but about routine for DD. And yes her Mum does get to dictate that as she has been the primary care giver since birth so she is this child’s stability.

Also wrt the nappies and wipes, it’s likely because other brands irritate the child’s skin. Mum should have communicated this clearer if this is the case.
My ex did the same and called me controlling however the reactions would usually occurr after DS was brought home to me so ex never saw his sore bottom. In the end I had to photograph it every time to send to my ex to show him there is a reason why I advise these things. Your DP has his DD in such short bursts he is unlikely to see any such reactions during his contact time.

Cut this woman some slack. She has a very young baby still, with a man she’s not with, who is apparently now going to be away from her 50% of the time. I would be hysterical if I were her.

And lastly. The vimto, I’m assuming not actually the fizzy pop vimto but actually squash? My children drank very very diluted no added sugar squash at 14 months from a cup when eating meals. She can’t insist your DP gives her it (and why would he if DD is happy with water) but I would suspect it is more of a preference or her telling him what DD likes to drink, which btw is not controlling.

I would print out a load of information about how rear facing is 4 times safer and send it home with her!

Sounds like the mum has some serious control issues

OP what was the purpose of you posting about the soft play incident before and why are you posting now? None of this is any of your business.

Wannabecitygirl I agree about rear facing car seats. But maybe he’s still putting her in an infant rear-facer?
My ex tried to squeeze my DS into his infant carrier seat until he was 13 months! Could be the same situation and the DM has shown him her car seat and said “she uses one of these now” meaning a bigger seat.
I don’t know, I’m speculating but that’s what happened to me.

50/50 is manageable at 14 months old but it is better when both parents do get on. Me and my ex have done 50/50 since my son was 11 months. Using the same wipes and nappies is the best for the child. The mother should tell your partner the foods the child doesn't like but he should be able to feed her what he likes and let the mother know oh she has had some tea.

The child doesn't need to sit in a high chair or wear a bib at this age. Both my children refused to from a young age so just sat on a normal chair.

I know it's hard but pick your battles with the ex. I know she likes to be in control but once it goes get up to 50/50 then I'd tell her to back off.

@Graphista best advice on this whole thread!

I am a step-mother (though I hate the term and we don't use it). I don't get involved in stuff like this, AT ALL. Not my child. You say you support your partner from the sidelines and are not going to involve yourself too much. If this is the case, why on earth are you asking for advice on MN about it?

I agree with Graphista. Why the hell is any of this your business op? You've been with him 5 minutes. Butt out.

She gives her Vimto? That needs to be challenged. Check the law about what type of car seat is best and follow that advice.

I think OP you need to stop pretending to be keeping out of it - hiding in the shadows and being deeply over-involved - it has literally nothing to do with you and you are not helping the situation at all.

Urgh. I have a 5 and 8 year old. My exh still cannot respect a routine after 6 years. My kids come home exhausted every single time. Dd2 cries at the slightest things because she's so tired. This weekend I've been sent pictures of her asleep in the day on a bouncy castle at 3pm. She never sleeps in the day normally.

Following the routine of the main carer for the child's welfare isn't too much too ask.

I love that Mumsnet has decided that its more qualified to decide what residency arrangements should be in place from a forum thread better than CAFCAS and a court hearing all the facts. Imagine if all of these issues were decided on these forums... estranged dads would only be allowed to see their children when it suited the mums and only by doing exactly what they were told & stepmums would be sent to the firing squad!

OP it sounds really tricky. I guess, like others have said, your DP just has to decide what instructions to follow and which to discard. He should make an effort to request more information if he’s not sure, and if she’s can’t provide it he can feel safe in doing something different if he wants.

I’d say he should also try to continue giving her information about what’s happening, even if she reacts crossly at the time. Over a longer period, if he gives her all the information she won’t have to ask for it- and reduced contact should mean reduced conflict.

Good luck!

How is the poor man supposed to nurture a relationship with his dc whilst carrying the childcare manual under his arm??