LONG first post - very worried i'm going to kill a 20 year marriage soon

[OlderTaz87]

It's my first post on here and i apologise for just how worked up i am for this. I'm posting because i need some serious advice from neutral people ahead of having a major discussion with my Husband tomorrow night regarding my 'adult' SD.

I walked into a relationship with my OH with full knowledge of his domestic set up at that point. I accepted he came as a package with a 4 year old child and thought i had my eyes wide open. I knew and accepted that i would be having my SD every weekend and the majority of holidays too. I loved and adored my OH and i came to love and adore my SD too. I truly mean that too. When at age 10 her domestic situation changed (i had just given birth to our first child together) and i was asked literally on the spot to have her move in permanently with us i was so keen to help my Husband that i readily agreed. I had, after all, spent 6 years at this point in a happy and healthy relationship with her.

Over the years we had one major blip when she was 17/18, it was quite a blip and affected us both deeply but somehow we got past it.By the time she left for Uni we were as we'd always been, completely close as anything. (her bio mum has been nothing short of horrible to her over the years so i've always 'stepped up' and been more).

However, my current issue began after Uni. At first she said she wasn't moving home as had met someone and they were moving onwards together (he was nice, they were happy, i thought they were too young etc... but she was adamant). Still, i got the loft converted so we could move one of our 'now 2 children together' into a bigger room and still allow her to be able to move home after if need be. So far so good. Invariably, her plans didn't go her way post uni and the boyfriend insisted they spend 6 months to a year getting more funds together and then move in properly. She returned home rather unhappily in this regard but with this being the plan. Unfortunately this is where it goes a little wrong on all of us as we failed (i now see) to discuss what the plan was, what would happen, lay down any rules, structure anything at all. Thus, i spent a first miserable year post uni with her living out her relationship under my roof and rather painfully so. She became surly, rude, sharp with her siblings, came and went as she pretty much pleased, got a great job but offered no upkeep at all, lived in a pigsty, destroyed the shower room she came to see as utterly hers (as we have more than one bathroom lucky for us) and just generally sent our lives into a year of miserable chaos. To the outside world and OH's family she was still the great girl she'd always been, no complaints there and i'm not prone to going moaning to them either as not their problem. However, it DID start to erode the relationship between me and OH very gradually. During that first year i lost my second Brother to cancer and i was at a real all time low but trying to work, run things, love my children, deal with SD and her other half in the house and the constant rows and tiptoing around things that everyone was doing.

A year into things, no doubt with things festering with me i completely lost it at my OH about her speaking rudely to me and for once he'd actually overheard it too. When i say 'rude' it was always done in quite the clever way... nothing you could fully pinpoint. But it was with disdain almost and i didn't like it. So... I blew. NOT at her i might add as we'd had that once at age 17 and neither of us had quite recovered from that. Instead I just walked away from her and raged at her Dad. So, in turn, he ended up blowing at her. He didn't mean to, he simply said "WHEN you've gone through life a little, lived a little and earned the right to form opinions on everything, you can decide then if you get to be rude to people like your step-mum - until then maybe you could grow up a little". Unfortunately, that statement provoked the most hellish row they've ever had in their lives and my SD said the most terrible things i've ever heard her say to him. I was no longer upset for me but furious for him (he has been an amazing Dad to her, nobody is perfect ... but he's been her everything, and i've come a pretty close 2nd over a long time). So it hurt.

SD tried a few days later in a roundabout way to apologise for some of the things she said 'whilst simultaneously blaming us for making her say them' which didn't bode well with me at all and made me even more angry then i was. I then ended up losing my rag too and said things that really weren't pleasant at all. Quite a few hurtful things got flung in my direction that i wont go into and i reciprocated pretty awfully too much to my horror, but there you go... cant be taken back now.

A few weeks later her boyfriend dumped her and the atmosphere at home became worse.

THAT was a year and a half ago.

Cue today and i'm just NOT living a normal existence at home at all. In fact, i dont feel like i've lived a normal existence in my house now running into a third year. Nothing is 'natural' anymore, nobody ever fully recovered from the huge row. No apologies ever came our way, quite the opposite at the time ("all my friends think YOU are wrong") and there it was..... We come and go in 'polite terms', there are no more rows... but there is no more anything really. We all exist alongside each other but not in an entirely comfortable manner. I DREAD coming home :( i mean REALLY dread... each and every day. I can't seem to get past it no matter how i try or resolve to do so :( I'm still so very very angry at her and cant get past it much to my dismay.

I'm confident she would prefer we WOULD get past it, and i've no doubt she wishes it wasn't this way either, but my resentment has done nothing more than build this last year and a half. We've now had to rip up the shower room as it's now completely disgustingly ruined. I cant bring myself to go near her room as it's so beyond shocking and it's hard to 'parent an adult' in all honesty. I'd be telling my younger ones to 'pick that up' 'bring that plate down' 'clean that sink' etc... but it no longer works this way as it's just plain awkward as she's nearly 24 now. She'll come in at all hours and then stay in bed all day at the weekend, get annoyed if the kids go near her room etc. During the week she still works at her very well paid job, yet still 2 years after getting that job she is yet to offer one penny in contribution (again, we should have covered this from the off, but when you're told someone is going in 6-12 months you tend not to maybe cover everything you should have covered) - but nonetheless i'm still angry that she never even offered.

I feel very very angry of late. I'm arguing non stop with my Husband now over it. I'd say we've pretty much argued over it every week if not every few days this last year - its going to kill the pair of us off. Everyone thinks we have this sold strong relationship (we did) and i'm just unable to discuss this with family or friends for fear of them holding it against her (i dont want them to do that and they would).

My husband wont talk to ANYONE about it at all, and as he cant talk to me without it now escalating into a full on row then that leaves him nobody and i'm actually devastated for HIM that it's this way. I should be the one person to take away his hurt and i'm causing him more by being unable to come back from this. He feels 'stuck' in this whole situation.

I feel she should be making plans by now, that she's an adult, a working adult at that and should no longer be acting like a teenager. She has many many wonderful qualities to her, all the things i have spent many years loving her for and heck raising her with myself. But i'm scared that if she doesn't make a plan to change this soon that it's going to implode at home and we will never return from it. I'll be throwing away 20 years and i'm starting to see no way out :( My 12 year old Daughter has started to ask me at bedtime 'what is wrong mum, is there a problem with you and SD?' and i'm devastated that being the intuitive little thing she is she has picked up on all the little things that clearly aren't normal anymore.

Tomorrow night i have asked my mum to come and babysit the children. I am going to take my OH for a drink and my intention is to explain that this cant continue, we need and deserve some plan of some kind, it's not unreasonable and i want to come back home with him on side and with some plan to go forwards with. I'm scared it's not going to go this way though :( :( :(

I don't want to type the 'am i being unreasonable?' sentence... as no doubt there are major parts of me being unreasonable. What i would really welcome though is some constructive advice to help me through the next stage of this.

Sorry this was so very long.

I agree with Quartz. People who are hurt take stuff out on those they are closest to. Her anger is with her own mother but she cant say that as she is not there. You are her mother and we cannot as mothers remove ourselves emotionally from our children especially when she was at that vunerable age.
Rules would be fine as that is a normal family.
Withdrawing is not fine as love of a parent is unconditional. She found out that day that you did not love her unconditionally. She was testing you and she got her answer. She is obviously a mixed up woman who has had a major trauma in her life. The answer to this is love. And rules. They go hand in hand. No rules means no love.
Ye cannot abandoned her now. Get into family therapy./ counselling.

She DOES earn more than OH. It galls me that he earns so much less at his age, but that's how it is. I dont want to tell her so as not to crush 'him'. I dont care about telling her as such, but he would be bereft. But it angers me so much that she's never offered once to contribute and he's never asked (i never trusted myself as timing was off).

Someone above is right, i AM the main breadwinner. I'm by no means rich at all please know. I have no savings, no pension, no ISA's, no nothing. I'm just a normal girl who left home at 16 (happy household dont worry) and worked hard to get to where i am. But where i am has no financial benefits at all. I can put a decent roof over ALL their heads, put them all in the 'right catchment' for school and ensure they've never gone without, even if i DID as a child. I'm a 'grafter'. I paid off her mothers debts when she left the UK because it affected my Husband and thus me. I've literally been doing nothing since i was age 26 - 46 but everyone else's crap.

Is THIS why i am so angry? i do ask myself this daily.....is my own background driving my attitude now? I just dont understand the mentality :( I didn't bring her up this way ( and it WAS me bringing her up in the major years)... i dont get why she would say the things she did (as a young adult) and also why she doesn't have the same desire as me/us to move forwards.

I think i DO need to address issues with her at some point. It does seem a terrible shame to let this be the legacy so to speak. I never thought i was a stubborn person, far from it. I've yielded on so many occasions for the easy life. i just dont want to 'yield' anymore?

i just feel in my heart i need a 'new new' so to speak? i cant revert any longer to what i was before. It's damaged. i would like to bridge the gap for everyone, but dont know how? OMG i am but hours away from the 'convo'. Will i do this justice - i don't know :(

I have given OH the heads up now that we are 'out to talk' etc. so he's going to be on guard now somewhat. This is NOT what he wants at all. We've had numerous conversations since June 2015 about the domestic front. We argue, we fall asleep, we wake up and move on for another day.

I NEED something to change now for the better. I need 'at least' some direction, some plan, some something. I think if i continue 'as is' i will go crazy now.

so from a lot of posts above, it's clear i am maybe doing the right thing in having the chat. AND i need to agree with my OH it has to change, have some timeline for change. I also concede maybe i need to 'clear some air' at some point too. I just don't know how to tie those two things together.

i am a mere 3 hours away from the chat, sitting at my desk, feeling somewhat dire. EEK xx

Too many people excusing the SDs awful behavior. Amazing what some people will let others get away with. Good luck OP

I didn't want to read and run but for what it is worth it is now time to ask her to move out and to move on with her life. She is an adult and it is now time for her to start making her own way in the world

It's what she said during the row at the time to my Husband and to me. I've spent a year and a half hating her for it, absolutely hating her for it and just cannot cope in her company anymore.
I think your problem lies there. It is hard for me to understand it because I know that I can say things that I don't mean in the mist of anger, so will my OH and DS. This come from an extreme sense of frustration of not feeling listened to and hurt and therefore saying the first thing that comes to mind that is likely to hurt...and therefore get attention.

That's why even though it hurts at the time to hear it, we know to put it behind us. We apologise for it, hug and move on. You say your SS did apologise, although maybe not as heartedly as you'd wished, but she did, yet you are seem to be holding to every word she said when these words might have been meaningless in themselves. Maybe going to a few counselling sessions help?

She is most certainly living her independent adult styled life, but at home.
This I think is the other problem. You are perceiving the house as yours with her residing there, just as you do as adults with children. She perceives the house as house sharing, as you do with adults sharing one place. She sees it that it is her right to sleep all day if she wishes.

This maybe wouldn't be so bad IF she actually paid her share and I think that needs to be the minimum outcome of your conversation, if OH can't take it upon himself to tell her she has to go now.

I think you need to make the route to transition. I agree with @swingofthibhs that she's seeing this as a houseshare. You can be supportive in her transitioning to a different arrangement. You and dp should sit her down and tell her that you need to start charging rent for her room, circumstances have changed. You can set at lower than market rent if that helps. That could help you all start to adjust to a more house sharing rather than family arrangement. I've lived with my parents post uni and once I had a job it was helpful to set limits. You could also give it a timeline if you're done having her in the house. All very much in the vein of 'we love you, we support you, we also have our own needs. How can we help each other?' . It sounds like she's a bit miserable, moving out might help her be less miserable or it might get worse before it gets better. Whichever way, you can support her to do this next bit of adulting. Is she the oldest? Just think of this as one more push, she just needs a bit of a hand to make her next adult steps. Try and do this when things are ok and you're all relaxed. Take time out if you find yourselves getting upset. You can do this!

Oh and re the behaviour towards you, I hope that by making it more of an adult relationship you'll be more able to set boundaries and it will become less of an issue as you'll have a different dynamic? I think it's that thing of cushion your heart and care slightly less, at least while she's under your roof.

Sounds like you're scared to tackle anything at all, in case it turns into a re-run of either the last big row, or the one in her teens. Which means literally nothing is being said. You've got to start talking somehow, or you'll end up at boiling point again.

I think you need to decide what your bottom line is if things don't change/dh won't force the issue with her. What are you prepared to do for your own sanity to make sure things do change. I don't mean give him an ultimatum (unless you want to), but know in your own mind. You need to feel like you have some control.

ok, off home to tackle this. wish me luck folks. Thanks so much for everything. I am using a lot of what is said to me, not quoting it dont worry, just in the back of my head etc.... and i think at the very minimum i need to walk away with some kind of agreement to moving forwards tonight.

i really dont want to hurt him here. x

Good luck OP

Remember that he is letting you be hurt too.

Good luck OP

Good,luck with the chat. I think if it goes well the three of,you should sit down and say what you expect of each other and how you move forward X

I used to work as a homeless officer for a local authority, I met many young people who had driven parents mad by not keeping to the house rules. The end result was parents chucking the young person out before suicide/murder took place. A lot of the young people really were obnoxious and had a sense of entitlement, never helping in the house and just wrecking it. ,refusing housekeeping contrubution etc. I think you need to make your OH understand that you are at the end of your tether and just can't go on; he must have some idea but probably doesn't want to confront daughter as he thinks he's failed her in some way. If you cook for her ;stop, if you do her washing;don't, tell her you are not her servant and if she won't keep her room clean,respect your home and you, she can go and stay in a hotel so she can order room service if she wants. Sometimes you do have to be cruel to be kind and it's about time she behaves as an adult. Oh and DON'T pay the deposit on a flat for her, I'm sure she can afford it by hereslf . I'd give her 2 weeks to shape up or ship out. If she is still awful after the 2 weeks ( and having been told what the shaping up involved) I'd pack her bags and have them on the doorstep one night. SHE IS NOT A CHILD !

I agree with Quartz too.

I hope your chat goes well but I think you might have missed the point a few people were saying - your SD feels abandoned by YOU because YOU cut her off and out on an emotional level after the argument years back.

Thinking of you. I went through this with a sibling and it was extremely wearing - that was just for a summer when they were back from uni.

Hoping that you come to a sensible solution.

She may be 24 but emotionally she is stuck in teenage mode

have you ever said to her you are proud of her job and what she earns. She doesn't know because it would crush him. Well I'm sorry but that's awful he should be proud of her. That one thing I think sums up everything wrong with the adult relationships in her life

How did your talk go, OP? Hope you're ok.

How did you get on last night OP ?

Good morning and apologies for radio silence.

The actual talk has gone ok and I'm hoping 'will' be productive. I didn't want to ambush him so warned we were 'out to discuss domestic front' and rather embarrassingly I went armed like it was a business meeting. Although I did royally take the piss out of myself to him for my doing so and there was a point midway where I got a tiny bit overcome and he said we looked like we were a couple discussing divorce terms over a drink!

We both agreed though that as a couple we are at risk right now :(

He was anxious/edgy though and I absolutely did my utmost to inject humour throughout it BUT still detach enough to get through what I needed to cover. Must quickly clarify the money thing with him/her - I do think I'm married to quite a unique man amongst his peer group in that due to circumstances I had to return to work 4 weeks after the birth of my now 10 year old son and him become a 'stay at home dad' (he lost his business). We've worked hard to come back from that both financially and emotionally and it was hard. He was amazing though and in many respects I think he's a better father for it too. He's still a man though that felt he let the house and me down and his ego (if you want to call it that) has taken a major bruising this last decade. Still.... he now works from home and earns ok and it allows us both to work around school stuff. I wouldnt give a fig about her knowing she earns so much more than him, in fact I'd love to put that rocket up her really. However, it would embarrass him greatly and I don't think he deserves that. He knows she earns much more, but he'd hate 'her' to know that iykwim?

But I did work out just how much she's netted this last couple of years ahead of our chat and it was a massive shocker to ME in all honesty. In many respects this HAS been a good exercise in opening up both our eyes. Neither of us have savings and he has no pension coming and we literally do what we do each month to cover it all and hold heads high and feel happy we're doing OK by them (both from very poor backgrounds the pair of us). So. I do think it's had a huge impact on him demonstrating just how well off she is currently.

Finances aside though as you want your children to do better than you in life etc so good for her. I did emphasise that how we live now is intolerable. I'm really not sure if it was the money thing though but he said at one point she's been a 'terribly selfish cow'. I conceded I've not helped matters by distancing myself and apologised to him for having been unable to rise up again better than this. We both discussed how ill we feel lately and he says he feels like he's drowning a lot.

I also went armed with info on local flat and house shares which was another eye opener to the pair of us. She may not be able to buy outright but renting is certainly affordable to her. Some even come with a cleaner included :p

So, we've agreed a rudimentary plan going forwards. It's her 2nd anniversary of work in a few weeks time and he is going to take her out for a drink to discuss things with that as the opener. I.e "ok you've been working two years now, what is the plan next?" He knows and agrees more importantly that the answer cannot be 'no plan' here. He asked me what 'I saw' as a fair deadline (didn't think it was fair to be flippant and say 2 years ago though) - so I've said with a concrete plan that we agree is concrete then I think 6 months is more than enough. I've said that the proviso re no rent for her will ONLY be in exchange for plan and deadline. If not then a good rent is starting immediately.

I'm not confident in the outcome of his/her chat but we'll see. I am confident though he is more on side than before which is a step in the right direction. Ive also said I'll do my best in the coming weeks to try and be more myself and hope it can lessen his anxiety more. I also said I would like to build bridges with SD but not sure how to bring that about currently. I've said (and I will) work harder at this.

Hmnnnnnn I am defo the queen of long posts here - is there an actual award for this?

I'm glad your chat went well, you sound like you had the right balance of seriousness and this is my message and keeping it light hearted but meaningful. This post seems more positive and I think what you have agreed is completely fair for SD. And hopefully it will work out as well with DH. No relationship should suffer to the point where you're thinking of separating because of SC. You must let us know how his talk with SD goes. x

Good you had the talk but I think you were/are way too soft.
Why should it be talked about in few weeks and on an anniversary of her working and not now? It's further few weeks of a hellish atmosphere you are living in!

And I don't get why it's him having this coversation not BOTH of you as an united front. It's your house, very much YOUR decision.

Also..next 6 months rent free? Really??? When you struggle financially and she is well off..why???
How do you expect this 24year old young women to treat you with any respect if you don't respect yourself, your home and other children who are learning SDs behaviour is acceptable..

Rent free? Wow. We 'charge' our eldest a fair amount for living at home, but we are saving it all up for him for when he does move out. Would that not work for you? Might get her out sooner?