LONG first post - very worried i'm going to kill a 20 year marriage soon

[OlderTaz87]

It's my first post on here and i apologise for just how worked up i am for this. I'm posting because i need some serious advice from neutral people ahead of having a major discussion with my Husband tomorrow night regarding my 'adult' SD.

I walked into a relationship with my OH with full knowledge of his domestic set up at that point. I accepted he came as a package with a 4 year old child and thought i had my eyes wide open. I knew and accepted that i would be having my SD every weekend and the majority of holidays too. I loved and adored my OH and i came to love and adore my SD too. I truly mean that too. When at age 10 her domestic situation changed (i had just given birth to our first child together) and i was asked literally on the spot to have her move in permanently with us i was so keen to help my Husband that i readily agreed. I had, after all, spent 6 years at this point in a happy and healthy relationship with her.

Over the years we had one major blip when she was 17/18, it was quite a blip and affected us both deeply but somehow we got past it.By the time she left for Uni we were as we'd always been, completely close as anything. (her bio mum has been nothing short of horrible to her over the years so i've always 'stepped up' and been more).

However, my current issue began after Uni. At first she said she wasn't moving home as had met someone and they were moving onwards together (he was nice, they were happy, i thought they were too young etc... but she was adamant). Still, i got the loft converted so we could move one of our 'now 2 children together' into a bigger room and still allow her to be able to move home after if need be. So far so good. Invariably, her plans didn't go her way post uni and the boyfriend insisted they spend 6 months to a year getting more funds together and then move in properly. She returned home rather unhappily in this regard but with this being the plan. Unfortunately this is where it goes a little wrong on all of us as we failed (i now see) to discuss what the plan was, what would happen, lay down any rules, structure anything at all. Thus, i spent a first miserable year post uni with her living out her relationship under my roof and rather painfully so. She became surly, rude, sharp with her siblings, came and went as she pretty much pleased, got a great job but offered no upkeep at all, lived in a pigsty, destroyed the shower room she came to see as utterly hers (as we have more than one bathroom lucky for us) and just generally sent our lives into a year of miserable chaos. To the outside world and OH's family she was still the great girl she'd always been, no complaints there and i'm not prone to going moaning to them either as not their problem. However, it DID start to erode the relationship between me and OH very gradually. During that first year i lost my second Brother to cancer and i was at a real all time low but trying to work, run things, love my children, deal with SD and her other half in the house and the constant rows and tiptoing around things that everyone was doing.

A year into things, no doubt with things festering with me i completely lost it at my OH about her speaking rudely to me and for once he'd actually overheard it too. When i say 'rude' it was always done in quite the clever way... nothing you could fully pinpoint. But it was with disdain almost and i didn't like it. So... I blew. NOT at her i might add as we'd had that once at age 17 and neither of us had quite recovered from that. Instead I just walked away from her and raged at her Dad. So, in turn, he ended up blowing at her. He didn't mean to, he simply said "WHEN you've gone through life a little, lived a little and earned the right to form opinions on everything, you can decide then if you get to be rude to people like your step-mum - until then maybe you could grow up a little". Unfortunately, that statement provoked the most hellish row they've ever had in their lives and my SD said the most terrible things i've ever heard her say to him. I was no longer upset for me but furious for him (he has been an amazing Dad to her, nobody is perfect ... but he's been her everything, and i've come a pretty close 2nd over a long time). So it hurt.

SD tried a few days later in a roundabout way to apologise for some of the things she said 'whilst simultaneously blaming us for making her say them' which didn't bode well with me at all and made me even more angry then i was. I then ended up losing my rag too and said things that really weren't pleasant at all. Quite a few hurtful things got flung in my direction that i wont go into and i reciprocated pretty awfully too much to my horror, but there you go... cant be taken back now.

A few weeks later her boyfriend dumped her and the atmosphere at home became worse.

THAT was a year and a half ago.

Cue today and i'm just NOT living a normal existence at home at all. In fact, i dont feel like i've lived a normal existence in my house now running into a third year. Nothing is 'natural' anymore, nobody ever fully recovered from the huge row. No apologies ever came our way, quite the opposite at the time ("all my friends think YOU are wrong") and there it was..... We come and go in 'polite terms', there are no more rows... but there is no more anything really. We all exist alongside each other but not in an entirely comfortable manner. I DREAD coming home :( i mean REALLY dread... each and every day. I can't seem to get past it no matter how i try or resolve to do so :( I'm still so very very angry at her and cant get past it much to my dismay.

I'm confident she would prefer we WOULD get past it, and i've no doubt she wishes it wasn't this way either, but my resentment has done nothing more than build this last year and a half. We've now had to rip up the shower room as it's now completely disgustingly ruined. I cant bring myself to go near her room as it's so beyond shocking and it's hard to 'parent an adult' in all honesty. I'd be telling my younger ones to 'pick that up' 'bring that plate down' 'clean that sink' etc... but it no longer works this way as it's just plain awkward as she's nearly 24 now. She'll come in at all hours and then stay in bed all day at the weekend, get annoyed if the kids go near her room etc. During the week she still works at her very well paid job, yet still 2 years after getting that job she is yet to offer one penny in contribution (again, we should have covered this from the off, but when you're told someone is going in 6-12 months you tend not to maybe cover everything you should have covered) - but nonetheless i'm still angry that she never even offered.

I feel very very angry of late. I'm arguing non stop with my Husband now over it. I'd say we've pretty much argued over it every week if not every few days this last year - its going to kill the pair of us off. Everyone thinks we have this sold strong relationship (we did) and i'm just unable to discuss this with family or friends for fear of them holding it against her (i dont want them to do that and they would).

My husband wont talk to ANYONE about it at all, and as he cant talk to me without it now escalating into a full on row then that leaves him nobody and i'm actually devastated for HIM that it's this way. I should be the one person to take away his hurt and i'm causing him more by being unable to come back from this. He feels 'stuck' in this whole situation.

I feel she should be making plans by now, that she's an adult, a working adult at that and should no longer be acting like a teenager. She has many many wonderful qualities to her, all the things i have spent many years loving her for and heck raising her with myself. But i'm scared that if she doesn't make a plan to change this soon that it's going to implode at home and we will never return from it. I'll be throwing away 20 years and i'm starting to see no way out :( My 12 year old Daughter has started to ask me at bedtime 'what is wrong mum, is there a problem with you and SD?' and i'm devastated that being the intuitive little thing she is she has picked up on all the little things that clearly aren't normal anymore.

Tomorrow night i have asked my mum to come and babysit the children. I am going to take my OH for a drink and my intention is to explain that this cant continue, we need and deserve some plan of some kind, it's not unreasonable and i want to come back home with him on side and with some plan to go forwards with. I'm scared it's not going to go this way though :( :( :(

I don't want to type the 'am i being unreasonable?' sentence... as no doubt there are major parts of me being unreasonable. What i would really welcome though is some constructive advice to help me through the next stage of this.

Sorry this was so very long.

I personally think that she won't start to behave as an adult until she moves out because at the moment, she doesn't want to do anything for anyone at home.

I did read the thread again and as it's been mentioned, I am wondering if there is an issue of depression which indeed might have been brought in by what happened with her boyfriend. She might have felt very let down and disappointed at not being to move in with him, and that has set her self-esteem and confidence back. She might have come back home assuming that you and her dad would be pondering to her because she desperately needed plenty of affection and attention to help her to get over it, but from her point of view, she only got request to give rather than offer to receive, and this has let to her shutting down.

What she needs is to move on, but her lack of confidence might be holding her back, so she is caught in a vicious circle. Maybe she could do with seeing a counsellor but of course, it might be difficult to suggest it.

I really think that the only way forward is to somehow try to re-establish communication to give her that emotional support that will make her determined to move forward. She needs to see it as a positive move, not being kicked out. Maybe that's why her dad is holding up. He really needs to have that conversation with her.

How could a shower room be so ruins that it needed to be removed? Did she smash up the sink and toilet?

Also curious about the shower room.

Wow, you've put up with far too much from SD and DH for too long! Like PP I think professional help would be good, perhaps couples counselling for you and DH.

Also agree that lots is being surpressed and pushed under the carpet, culminating in huge outbursts.

DH is a big part of the problem, eg not requiring any kind of financial contribution, payment for the damaged bathroom, or basic cleanliness. And not listening to your concerns.

I would tell your younger DC the truth: that there IS a problem between you and DH and you both and SD. They may wish to talk about how the situation is affecting them.

I have no sympathy at all for your step-daughter. She's an adult ffs. At 24 she is old enough to be living independently. Sounds like she needs a shove. Her selfish and venomous behaviour cannot be allowed to affect your whole family.
You and your DH need to give her a month to find somewhere else to live and stick to it. Does your DH really want to be a part-time dad to his youngest children? That's what will happen if you leave him.

What strikes me here is she is very much a STEP daughter. Stuff like this happens with our own kids too but it seems to be blown out of proportion here and as poster says left to fester. I have had more than one major blow out with my ds. I have ripped him to pieces on his behaviour and carry on and he has given it back. Next day we both have hugged , cleared the air and moved on. We have a fabulous relationship now but he was one that needed firm talking to on a few occasions as he would push as far as he could. Did you never have to clear the air with your own parent?.Sometimes things need to be said. But you dont hold grudges. You wont do that with your own dc. I see that as the downfall here. Families fight but the senior people take the lead in making sure all is ok. She was late coming to her rebellious phase but teens often take a toll on a family.
I think you were expecting perfection and especially expecting her to be grateful that you took her in..Neither of these makes a true daughter.
I sound harsh on you but the good thing is you can solve it..Maybe get counselling and get them to help you walk through reconciliation with her while learning how to lay down firm rules for the house.

OP I really feel sympathy for you.

I'm not sure what to suggest as I'm guessing if you're fighting that OH doesn't share your view and want her to leave?

I was going to offer another point of view, as I'm in my 20s and still live with my parents purely because I can't afford to live elsewhere at the moment, none of my friends are in a position to share with me, and I'd rather houseshare with my family than strangers. It can get me down a lot and I would so love my own space. But this doesn't sound like it's the case with your SD...if she has the money, I'm so surprised she doesn't want her own space.

I think the best approach would be to start off talking to her about her own plans and vision for the next few years to see where she's at.

Then explaining that things have gone on too long with everyone unhappy, and she needs to act like a reasonable adult housemate instead of a teenager, and contribute to the household. This could be monetarily, but should certainly be in terms of basic politeness, cleaning up after herself, doing basic chores. I guess you could also ask what she expects from other members of household herself and then discuss that, so it's not all one sided. Eg if she says she just wants to be left alone and not nagged, you can say that's fine but she needs to do a basic amount of tidying up after herself nonetheless like anyone sharing a home with others, and if she wants to be treated like an independent lodger instead of a family m member maybe she should pay at least a token rent.

I think you should agree with your DH/her a trial period, ie if the above isn't adhered to she needs to move out.

And ideally the whole thing staying firm but kind, without shouting, emphasising this is all to try to make everyone happier and help her to live independently which all adults have to do at some point. It's not due to having it in for her or having it in for her because she's a step daughter or less loved than the younger DC. She's 24 and in a full time, well paid job, youve housed her for free as a working adult for years already, you're not asking for anything unreasonable to want to know her plans and have an end in sight. You can continue to see her and support and be family to her once she's moved out, probably more effectively than you can do now due to the toxic atmosphere at home.

Thank you so much ALL x I've not slept much worrying about tonight and i've read through each and every message thoroughly. I'm not sure how to reply to each one of you, if i have to do that @ first or 'add message' etc, apologies for forum ignorance here. I also did type a lot too (sorry) it's been nice to release it a little xx To address a couple of things if that helps?:

she's in bed all day at the weekend because she comes in at varying times of the night til all hours (6am etc) after out with her mates. We hear her come in and then we have to get up still with the kids and it can be irksome. I actually have less issue with that bit than her Dad does, although it's annoying for sure. She is most certainly living her independent adult styled life, but at home.

sorry to laugh about @Mrs CK first sentence of the shower, you actually put a smile on my face as i could imagine myself typing that to someone x. Cannot believe how ridiculous it is to see me type these words, but for a year and a half i stayed away from her room and the adjacent shower room. I left her to her own devices. Self contained so to speak. I ensured the kids always used the other bathroom, seemed easier as she was always in/out of the shower room permanently. I showed her where all cleaning products were kept and to all intents and purposes the way the house is configured she could have been in her own quarters. That was until water started cascading into our kitchen downstairs when she was out. The shower had somehow been left on and when we went in to tackle it we found the tiles covered in mould, hair dye all down the tiles and walls, multiple products gunked into every surface, the window separated from the shelf and falling off from water and product residue. The floor, sink, toilets were filth (but obviously cleanable) but the floor around the toilet and shower were so soaked through they were rotten. We found the drain part of the shower clogged with hair of varying kind, those squidgy washing things and a couple of lids (??). The water had clearly been seeping up beyond the shower for the whole time and over the whole bathroom floor without a word being said and eventually it just went through the floor. It's all rotted away around it.

Before anyone says anything, I am aware i am completely culpable here. When we had the huge row i stepped back, well and truly. I immediately distanced myself from her and from the situation as i thought i was in danger of saying or doing something so bad none of us would recover (like throw her out). My only way to cope with the aftermath was to become the opposite of myself for the preceding 18 years. I just 'couldn't' do it. I 'should' have been all over her like a rash, i 'should' have been monitoring what she was upto, how she was treating things (i did when she was a teenager) and i 'should' have been on top of it. But the only way to stop myself saying or doing something we'd all regret was to back away fully. So there you have it... and believe me you DONT want to know about the bedroom (which i did actually fully tackle once when she was away as it sickened me so much, but it reverted to kind immediately upon her return).

In answer to another very important question asked by a couple of people and i think it's very important because it crosses my mind too ahead of tonight. IF she now had rule changes, house rules, was made to contribute etc, step up and be a proper member of the household etc....would it help with her staying for the forseeable? If i'm being honest with myself and all of you, then no. In the 'short term' yes it would help... but the idea i'm in this scenario still a year from now scares the living crap out of me.

As to my DH, he is scared. He is scared of placating everyone here. His ideal scenario would be that she 'move herself out' which would obviously be the best solution for her to make the decision herself. He doesn't want to 'make her do it' as such.

I dread going home each day and at the weekend as i actually have a full on physical reaction to it all now i'm ashamed to say. I cant 'be' the person i was anymore, i find being at home stressful if she is around and that's not because she's a horrible person at all, she's just been a rather immature and selfish one of late. It's what she said during the row at the time to my Husband and to me. I've spent a year and a half hating her for it, absolutely hating her for it and just cannot cope in her company anymore. I would give anything to go back to how it was and feel differently but she pulled the rug out from under me so very badly and i cant seem to do it. She honest to God made me feel the preceding 18 years had been pointless. For the first time i actively wished i'd NEVER become a step-parent or got together with my Husband. It hurts me to feel that way. The energy it takes from me daily to attempt to be a fraction of the person i used to is massive.

We are all too aware something bad fractured that day and that nobody got over it fully. We politely go around each other in pleasant chitchat, communication of whereabouts etc but nothing is EVER fully relaxed at home when we are all there. I hate living like it.

and there i am all long long long AGAIN oops.... probably should have found someone to talk to about it before now and my posts might have been shorter!! x

But you have opened up now 1st step, you will tonight with your DH 2cnd step and then step 3 is how you both decide what to do. You have plenty of suggestions for him from here he cannot ignore everything. If he knows his marriage is at risk he will surely approach your SD with you as a couple and sort something out. If she doesn't like the rules, contributing etc then she must go..... but she is only going to be doing that wherever she lives she cannot live for free in this world. I do think whatever the outcome you and DH should consider some counselling if you think you can't get back on track with your marriage yourselves. All the best and good luck for tonight x

Op stop blaming yourself. Your husband is responsible for allowing his DD to destroy the shower and to be so filthy..and for letting her get away with this lifestyle for so long.
Coming back at 6am and waking you up, all day in a filthy room destroying your house while you take care of your children and try to stay out of her way..I would go mental..I really would. It sounds like a nightmare.
Your DH has to take action. He has let his DD take a piss long enough. If he won't you should kick them both out. Oh and she should not only pay rent while she is looking for her own place but pay for destroying the bathroom too!

I would also tell her how you feel - how whatever she said made you feel. And I would listen to what she has to say.

18years you gave her..its enough. In time she might come to appreciate it but for now protect yourself. This WOMEN needs to take responsibility for her words and actions. She never will unless you spell it out for her and she feels CONSEQUENCES.

Oh I agree she should be told she is earning more then your DH.

I think when someone is so bad and selfish, with regard to the wrecked shower, that it is actually deliberate and malicious. I think she is harbouring anger due to her DM abandoning her (I think that was the scenario - sorry can't face reading your long post again) and is hitting out about it. The boyfriend going has added to that. There is no excusing that disgusting behaviour.
I don't think she has dealt with her abandonment issues or whatever it is but you are the scapegoat taking the fall out.
If it was me I would insist on counselling for a minimum of time eg x months, if she is going to continue living with you. maybe twice a week initially to get things going. She can probably afford to pay. And see if she can sort herself out. She sounds pretty messed up and not particularly happy.
I could be quite wrong but it is worth giving this a try imv.

OMG i am so sorry about my long posts really xxx

Her Dad has never abandoned her i should point out, quite the opposite. it was her Mum who pretty much did that. Upto age 10 she was ever present for weekends and holidays. From then onwards she lived with us permanently seeing her Mum a handful of occasions, perhaps once a year. I was her significant person in this regard, always have been. I really honest to God have done nothing but put her ahead of everything since i met her at age 4. It's why i've struggled to forgive her for what she said to her Dad, let alone me. It was hideous and wholly uncalled for. Scathing doesn't even begin to cover it... sadly.

I agree with another poster that this divide has opened my eyes to natural parenting v's step parenting for the first time ever. I've always til now been a rather natural parent to her and we've had words over the years, what i call normal stuff in every house etc.

i would like to build bridges, new ones at some point wither her. Currently i feel unable to as i'm always so angry (i'm ashamed to say). I obviously dont hide it as well as i thought, hence my 12 year old intuitive daughter knowing something is 'amiss'. I think this has provoked me to 'do something' about this finally as i dont want these impressionable years for them being about 'this fallout'.

NB i am taking ALL of your advice/opinons fully onboard here, thank you. x

I would insist she pays to repair the bathroom.

Ask for a reasonable amount of rent/housekeeping eg 1/3 of her wages.

Set a deadline for moving out - 12 months, or maybe by her 25th birthday.

By 24 I had been living independently for 6 years, and was married with a child.

OP I think you've done more than enough to try and build bridges, it seems to me like she is behaving like a spoiled brat and needs to a) apologise properly b) start taking responsibility for her actions and c) pay rent and also repair the damage to the shower room.

Ok I think she was abandoned by her mother, you went from step mother to mother and now you have abandoned her. She said things, to see if you would abandon her and you did. Proving to her that she is worthless (you say she pushed friends and potentially a boyfriend away). She believes herself to be unlovable so why should she bother

So what do you do. You become the adult, you tell her you love her and are not going to abandon her but she needs to grow up (as do you). Show her how to clean (have you ever done that remember you were the mother) tell her she needs to pay rent and clean

And you need to grow up and realise she said those things because you were like a mother to her

I just don't understand why she still wants to live at home?

At her age I was desperate to move out and live with mates, and I did. Even tho I got on well with my family.

You and ur DH must be doing something that makes her want to stay at home, despite the unhappiness all round. What is it do you think?

quartz

How has OP abandoned her?' They've put up with her nonsense for years! Way too much misplaced sympathy for this ADULT SD. She's a nightmare and if she wants to live there she needs to shape up or ship out.

SD is lucky, how ma y people would really put up with her. I wouldn't and I know many who wouldn't!

Maybe you're not nagging her/telling her off enough

I felt like my mum was always nagging me and telling me off...which is why I was desperate not to live under her eye

She says it herself she withdrew emotionally away, from a child who pushed back to see if she was as unlovable as she thought she was because her mother abandoned her, tested out her theory and it was proven correct. you are right there is no physical abandonment but emotionally she was left adrift at 17 and has not moved on from there. You have an adult teenager

Her behaviour has a cause and she needs counselling.

I don't think withdrawing is healthy or helpful here. You keep saying that you're doing it to avoid saying/doing something dreadful, but this situation of tiptoeing about each other never really speaking is dreadful, corrosive and likely to end up in as bad a situation as anything else you could say or do.

Do you think you could manage to forgive her, without apologies, without expectations of change going forward? Find a way of starting with a blank slate? Do you think she could do the same?

If you managed to do that, then maybe you could start at the beginning and lay down some house rules, expectations of board (which she should absolutely be paying), expectations of how long she intends to stay and what plans she's making for the future.

The whole thing reads as sad and exhausting, but at the moment you all seem stuck, and someone's going to have to make the first move. Personally I prefer to just bite the bullet and make that me in these situations - it doesn't mean it's fair, but it at least moves things forward.

OP, not sure if this helps, but I think you really need to move on and away from the arguments and what has been said. Things are said in anger all the time, that are not true, or a very twisted version of true that we feel only at that point we are angry. Personally, although words are hurtful etc. etc. sometimes it is important/ cathartic to have a blazing row and then get through it, make up and deal with some of the things which have been brought up eg. perhaps she said something along the lines of not feeling as loved by you as your own children and perhaps that is true to some extent, and hurtful. Not something you could really change, however hard you have tried, but to sympathise with and not be angry about. All this stuff is blurry, counselling-type stuff and difficult to find 'right' and 'wrong'/ 'blame'/ 'fault' etc. It's just stuff which needs to be known and accepted and loved through.

However, the shower and room and rent stuff is another question entirely and one which is much easier to deal with. I actually think it's got confused with the emotional stuff now, but it needs to be separated. It is unacceptable. I would deal with all of that, and then see if she wants to stay. I think it is unlikely, but it will probably ease the pressure of having a woman-child in your house. You need:

a. Rent
b. Assistance with children. cooking and washing
c. Money towards the shower
d. An acceptable standard of cleanliness in her room - it is still your house and a landlord would expect the same.

If she cannot agree to that, then you can't have her at home. It's simple. It's actually love to start trying to help her grow up and it is love to engage with her. Tiptoeing around her and smalltalking is not love. I know you can't imagine another year, but if those things above happen I think things will vastly improve. I also think some time to go out with her 1:1 to let her know you still like her as a person and perhaps after 1 or 2 times of having a drink together, you could bring up some deeper stuff and talk through things which have been festering. But the way she treats the house and you guys as her meal tickets is not on.

Bloody hell Quartz...Thats a 24year old WOMEN. OP has done enough.

If the 24 old needs counselling she should arrange it herself, as ADULTS do.

In this case its not only an adult its a graduate with a job that pays more then her DF. She is clearly not a 17year old teenager or she wouldn't hold it.

I think the only way you are going to build bridges is for her to move out and grow up.

Can I ask what the financial situation is in terms of who owns your house and who is the higher earner? I'm assuming you might be the higher earner if your husband is on a graduate level salary? If so and you both own the house then you are going to have to have a very very honest chat with your husband. I would want to make him totally aware of how stressed and ill your home situation was making you and how i wasn't prepared for it to be ongoing.

It is not in the slightest bit unreasonable for both of you to ask his daughter to move out. She could absolutely afford a house share and it would be beneficial for her to be forced to show some respect for her surroundings and understand how expensive living daily outside of your parent's home is.

Your husband obviously has his own reasons for why he is prepared to accept her behaviour. But you really have done more than enough and I think it's time for you to be able to enjoy your home again.

So pull your big girl pants up and have the conversation with him. Your marriage depends on it.

I agree with the abandonment theory. She does need counselling.
I think you need to grow big girl pants and action rules. You can't say she's making me miserable but I can't do anything about it. You can!
I think you need to let go of the stuff she said to you.... stuff gets said all the time . Move on tell her you love her but she's 24 and needs to shape up or ship out.
She needs to contribute to the bathroom
And pay rent and baby sit at least once a month.
Then I'd give her an ultimatum she can save up for 6 months to either move out or go travelling. But she can't live in your attic forever and she needs to realise how much of a shit she's being .