He knew what he was getting into

[WhoGivesAFlying]

We've all heard the saying "you knew what you were getting into when you got with a man with children"....but why is it only the SM who are held accountable in most people's eyes? Surly the dad should also realise that, getting with a woman with no children or even just the fact that the woman isn't thier mum and won't have the same feelings mean they should also be held to account? Why is it that the compromise should be all on the SP.

Just musing here

It seems that many men, with whom women have several DCs, subsequently have personality changes when the relationship breaks down, and become selfish, irresponsible and weak. I'm not sure what the answer is

The answer is that as a society, we strongly object to having men (or women) in our social circles or at family gatherings who are absent from their children's lives, who refuse to pay maintenance, or who can't cope with the fact that existing children need to be supported - emotionally, practically, financially, physically - regardless of the breakdown of a relationship.

Unfortunately, there are way too many people out there who make light of it - I am willing to bet we all know someone who behaves in a crap way towards both their ex and their children but we accept it as a quirk of their personality and never say anything. It won't stop until we stop blaming all of society's ills on 'single mums' and look at the deep-rooted misogyny that allows men (mainly men) to step back from what it actually means to be a parent.

Most worryingly, these men never seem to have a shortage of women queuing up to have more children with them.

Except with a lot if SMs like me who had the step kids a lot (every weekend all of step kids and two resident) - it is the result of their mother being lazy about her parenting. She didn't want to work, had all the maintenance, therefore DP worked full time to provide for everyone. DP would have loved to have the kids as much as he could, but obviously had to work. Their mother was using the fact that I was around to foist the kids for about 80% of the time to us. And yet would go on to her family about how hard she had it as a single parent. Society had no criticism for her!

Rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

The answer is that as a society, we strongly object to having men (or women) in our social circles or at family gatherings who are absent from their children's lives, who refuse to pay maintenance, or who can't cope with the fact that existing children need to be supported - emotionally, practically, financially, physically - regardless of the breakdown of a relationship.

I agree - but question why this only applies to men whose relationships have broken down?
There are daily posts on MN from women who are dissatisfied with their DHs engagement with their DCs - fathers who can't be left in sole charge of their DCs, fathers who are emotionally disconnected. Yet, invariably, there are multiple children.
Women are choosing to not only remain in relationships with men who are irresponsible fathers, but are choosing to have several DCs with them, despite knowing, and being unhappy with, their parenting.
I don't know why that is - maybe abuse in some cases, certainly lack of self esteem - but when those women who do work to become more confident eventually end the relationship, the DCs are the ones who miss out.

Pretty, I totally agree, that's happened to more than a couple of people I know - but in my experience that also happens the other way around. My DP had his first DC, knew perfectly well after that the relationship was unfortunately doomed (largely due to the same factors you've listed above but for the M) and ended up having his second DC anyway. Obv no one would change the kids for the world now, but as a SM I find it increasingly difficult to be sympathetic with his gripes about his ex because of the sheer fact that he knew exactly with whom he was procreating. Now he pays a lot of his wages in maintenance to a woman who isn't overly interested in her DC, farms them out as much as she can all week and spends his money on designer dresses for her weekend partying. The kids are certainly not better off.

Funnily enough though, when DP and I were getting together, she was described to me as 'alright' and that he was 'pretty lucky, it could be so much worse' - funny how two years in, that was the biggest porky pie ever to be spoken!!

But I do think that maybe there should be more education in schools about 'healthy' relationships and maybe finding a way to empower all of the next generation to not accept or settle for situations that don't meet your expectations. I think maybe, especially after one child has been born, one or other or both of the parents feel trapped and obligated to make it work for the sake of the child. Then one thing leads to another and 'it would be nice for DC to have a sibling, it might help' but everyone is already aware that the situation is never going to get better. It's very sad for all involved, especially the children.

Sometimes it can take X amount of years before you realise you have more self worth and as a result you realise that your expectations become very different to what they were before.

For me I think it has come with age. I was 19 when I met DP, very naive and just went with the flow. Over the past 6 years DP/his family/his ex have all collectively worn me down, and when I reached my mid twenties I thought enough is enough. I am now NC with his mother and a few other of his family members, I have put my foot down wrt DP's lazy and arrogant behaviour, and I am also unwilling to be treated like a doormat when it comes to dsd anymore.

In those first few years when I put up with it we had 3 children.

The answer is that as a society, we strongly object to having men (or women) in our social circles or at family gatherings who are absent from their children's lives, who refuse to pay maintenance, or who can't cope with the fact that existing children need to be supported - emotionally, practically, financially, physically - regardless of the breakdown of a relationship.

Having been an SM and a single parent, in my experience society does give the mother an awful lot of leeway, but a step mum almost none at all. My step childrens mother did not provide them with the support they needed and pushed that onto me, yet I was given no say, no authority to be the parent, and zero support.

in my experience society does give the mother an awful lot of leeway

I disagree. As a society there is no respect whatsoever for the single mum. If she works, her children are neglected, if she doesn't work, she's benefit scrounging scum. I have lost count of the number of people I would consider educated and decent who at some point during my many years as a single parent made frankly disgusting comments about me, to me, and within my earshot. These range from 'I suppose we're paying for you to live here' said in front of my children (I own my own home, outright, no mortgage), to 'you really need to get your child's hair cut because people think you can't cope' (from a woman who's sons have hair down their backs!), to 'I wish I could do what you do (I am a teacher) but I can't because I have a husband' (well, no, she couldn't because she isn't qualified, not by about 6 additional years of education). I have heard people discuss my 'poor children' within my earshot because I work for a living and 'she's always putting them in childcare, why doesn't she just think of her children?' to 'she was at the pub last week with a man, how disgusting, I suppose her children will have another uncle soon' (I have had a number of boyfriends before meeting my partner, my partner is the only one who I have ever introduced to my children)..... someone even said to me once 'why aren't you sad? If I was you, I would be so miserable all the time'. Oh and the classic 'you should send your children to live with your ex, he's a good dad, they would be better off with him. You shouldn't have a career, you're a mother. Your ex's girlfriend would be such a good mum for them, she doesn't work, did you know that?' I mean, seriously, what the actual fuck was that about?!!!!

And don't get me started on colleagues who have no shame in saying 'well, his mother's a single mum so what do you expect?' in relation to any child who's behaviour might be less than perfect in school.

Women are blamed for everything 'bad'. Yet is is women who stay, who take responsibility, and bring up their children as best they can making the best possible decisions they can for their circumstances. All the bad in our society is our fault. And yet we stand by men, laugh alongside them about the psycho ex, agree he shouldn't have to pay maintenance because she works/doesn't work, and stand by him when he makes a decision to abandon children in favour of a new partner.

My comment further up thread was responding to how we change things, not to somehow further pit mum against step mum. I think that's a different issue altogether.

I'm not sure I do understand what you were originally meaning in terms of this thread.

I'm just talking about my own experience. I was a single mum for a long time, it was tough I agree. But my experience as a step mum is tougher. It surprised me a lot. What also surprised me was the lack of any control at all, I was told that was the deal when I met my DP so I shouldn't voice any opinions at all. At least as a single parent I at least could feel that I had a role, and comfortable in my home.

I agree no one should be pitted against each other. But we should be fair to all.