16 year old DSD and associated costs...

[notharriet]

My DSD is 16. She has been pretty much estranged since August really with maybe three coffee meets with DH in that time always when she wants some money for something. There is a huge back story and possibly the easiest way to explain it is that she has been subjected to alienation techniques from her mother since being very small. From the time they divorced when DSD was 8 and until around the age of 12, she was with DH and mum 50/50 then at about 13 it all became very difficult and has never really been smooth from there.

What has happened today has left DH (and me) feeling confused as to what to do for the best. i.e. what is the right thing to do Vs being a mug.

So, she has asked him if they can meet up because “I’m about to turn 16 and go to college and at this age I need certain things from you that Mum can’t afford as my costs have gone up”. Now, DH pays CSA of course (around £380 per month I think), and he pays for her mobile phone contract which I think is about £30. Although she decided not to use the phone anymore when mum bought a more flashy one which mum pays for so this is essentially money down the drain.

Mum works very part time in a shop so there isn’t really cash available there. Although, they have a very large house and holidays, drives a BMW etc. so we think that Mum’s other ex might pay her quite a bit in CSA for their son. The reason I'm telling you that is because they are not on the bread line although I'm sure it's not easy.

Anyway... because we don’t have a teenager at home (as much as we’d have liked to have her in our lives!!), and have no idea about costs, we don’t want to assume that DSD is bullshitting and wonder if her costs have indeed increased and if we may be missing something? My head is telling me that at 16 must be when costs actually go down because they start to have their own life/ income etc. My thoughts are that DH could pay for half of any large items or expenses (books lists? Stationary?) but pay directly for the items. Which I don’t think he’d mind as he has always been happy to cover his responsibilities and if there really are sudden large costs, we don’t want DSd to not be able to have the things she needs. But I think she’s going to go more down the route of a regular amount of money paid to her for non descript items... which I want to help him to prepare for.

Am I wrong to think she should have a job in a supermarket or something? If it’s socialising/ clothes/ make up that she wants to be able to afford? I imagine her mum is at the end of her tether with the associated costs of a 16 year old girl and don’t expect that the £380 that DH pays goes very far if she’s having to cover make up, trips out, visits to her boyfriend who lives 80 miles away etc... But the dilemma we have is that if DH was involved DSD’s life he would be telling her to get a job. Because he isn’t, he doesn’t really have any control over any of it and it seems odd to pay a 16 year old pocket money when she could work. We have a little spare money, we’re not on a shoe string, but we don’t have a great deal and my opinion is that even if we did, I don’t agree with giving kids money for nothing. Even my 8 year old has to do a couple of chores for her £3 a week.

So, if you’ve got this far, my questions are:

Did you costs go up for your teenager when they started college?
What kinds of things were they?
Did they get a job?
Did you pay them pocket money?
If you are separated from their other parent – did the NRP pay for additional items for college on top of CSA and if so, what?

Thanks x

How about offering to cover her travel costs for college, which can be a real drain. Maybe buy her season ticket for the bus or train. That way you are buying something essential which will benefit her education without getting dragged into directly subsiding frivolous stuff.
Sometimes it's not as easy as saying "get a job", especially at 16 when it will need to be part time and fit around her college hours.

When DSS turned 16, the costs didn't go up for us, in fact they went down. He was out mostly with his friends at that time, so our food and water bill reduced! We have always said that we will get him whatever he needs but won't just dole out cash willy nilly. He has always had to find his own cash for socialising be that via a weekend job or chores such as cleaning the car or bathroom.
Neither myself nor OH were ever handed cash by our parents, we were both taught that you have to work for what you want and in the real world nothing is free. We felt that by giving him cash on demand we would be setting him up for failure when he entered the real world.
We did buy him a laptop which was half birthday present and half just from us because we felt it was time he had one of his own.
When DSD (currently 13) turns 16 or approaches that age we certainly won't be buying her make up! We will buy her what she needs, if she wants luxuries she will have to earn them like everyone else on this planet.
I agree with Mrs Cakes, buy tangiable things for the DSD by all means but don't hand over cash . It is slightly worrying that the only time she is interested in having a relationship is when she gets money. The complete lack of consideration over the phone contract is terrrible. I would be really upset by that.
I may be wrong as its a long time since I was a student, but I had a free travel card for weekdays because i was a student. It might be worth checking this out just in case its still available?

Yes, could be an idea. It would show a willingness to support her without encouraging the idea of just handing cash over for naught.

Maybe DSD could provide a list of what she needs and you and OH can select the items you are prepared to buy for her? That way, she is being supported but you guys aren;t being taken advantage of.

Will she not be able to claim ema from local council.?

I think she needs to spell out exactly what she wants extra money for over and above the maintenance paid to her mother.

My DSC go to sixth form, and we don't give them any more money than when they went to school. We have paid for trips related to the course but thats all that has cropped up.

One of them has a part-time job, the other doesn't.

If she has specific requests for school related items, fine, but I wouldn't just give her extra directly. I would certainly encourage a part-time job at 16.

Thanks too Sonny. That's kind of my take on it.

I'm sorry Ellie - what is EMA?

I think you are jumping the gun and trying to work out what to do with no real facts.

I would suggest that first off your dp meets her and finds out what she is asking for. Just that. Then tell her he won't say yes or no immediately, he will go away and see what he can do and then meet her again.

I bet this is less about the actual money and more about their relationship and him being there for her. The money could just be her currency for saying hey Dad you do care and want what's best for me don't you? 16 year olds can be tricky with their thoughts and feelings, I've learnt to never take things at face value.

Find out from the college she's going to what she's entitled to as he may end up giving her money for bus fare and find out later that she's got a free pass.

I think she should be working part-time. For one thing, it teaches her to be independent and know the cost of things she wants, but also because whether she wants to go to university or wants to go straight to work/have an apprenticeship, it's really difficult to do either without having a part time job to put onto your cv.

He should treat her as he would if she was living with him - if he'd tell her to get a job then, he should tell her now.

I think the travel card idea is a fab one (although I would pay the amount less the cost of the phone.)

Has your DH actually had a conversation with his ex? She may have ideas about outgoings and what you should prioritise, even if the relationship between them is poor your DH at least trying to work in partnership with the ex is important in case of future strife.

Oh I just Googles and I don't think she'd be eligible:

you’re in or recently left local authority care
you get Income Support or Universal Credit in your name
you’re disabled and get both Employment and Support Allowance (ESA), and either Disability Living Allowance (DLA) or Personal Independence Payment (PIP) in your name

I would expect to give a 16 year old an allowance. Mine get £50 per month from me and my ex. in addition they get their phones paid out of a joint account and I buy uniform, clothes etc from that as well. We don't to CSA as we each pay for everything in our own homes - they live mostly with me. They seem to have plenty of money for bits and bobs, they don't get other hand outs and they do have to save if they want big stuff. Giving them control of their own bank accounts has made them much more savvy with money.

It isn't that easy to find a job at 16 - at least not where we live and I would rather mine spent their time studying.

Sethspeaks - I think there is certainly an element of that. She has always equated money=love. It's hard because of course he'd love to have a relationship with her which would have money as a part of it amoungst so much to her stuff but it is impossible, at least right now.

Becles - DH and the ex did manage a parenting relationship for quite a few years but he took the decision to go no contact about three months ago because of the level of abuse. It was completely unmanageable.

We were saying last night how if a relationship was possible with mum, it would be so easy to just speak with her about costs and come to an arrangement.

That's interesting Elastamum. So they have £50 each (or is it £100 as in 50 from both you, and 50 from dad?), plus all their clothes, uniform and essentials, and no one pays CSA.

Would you expect, if your ex did pay you CSA at the rate my DH pays, and you had just the one teen, that it would cover those things? Or would you want him to pay them £50 too?

Just referring to PP comment regarding EMA (which was money given to some 6th form level students) - this is no longer provided sadly.

There isn't a relationship with her mum though, so forget that and work with what you have.

And he can have a relationship with her, I'm not sure I follow why he thinks he can't.

She has asked to meet with him. He needs to do that and listen to what she has to say.

Oh yes, sethspeaks, he will meet her and listen to what she has to say of course. He is very much of the opinion that you can't plan and that he will just see what she asks for and then he can decide. But she has a habit of putting him on the spot and having an almighty tantrum if things don't go her way immediately. Which in turn really stresses him out and upsets him.

The reason I'm on here asking for advice is because I want to support him in coming to a decision about what the "right thing" is. And without having a teen at home, we don't know how much of what she says is true or realistic. We don't really have any friends with teens either so can't turn anywhere for advice.

He would love a relationship with her but it is hard when she will only meet him for brief meetings which revolve around asking for money and all the rest of the time he can't get so much as a text response from her

I guess I want to find out what would be for the best and be fairest rather than just wheeling out "But I already pay your mum CSA so ask her" that is so often used by NRP's.

I would offer to pay for school supplies but that's it. Everyone I know got a job at 16 whilst doing a-levels. She should be paying for her own social life.

We have teens and haven't really found their costs to go up post 16. The only way I can see they really would would be if their travel costs to college were higher than school, or if their social lives picked up a lot post 16. But I think a part time job is a perfectlyl fair answer to funding their social life.

Does your DP know how much DSD's mum gives her as an allowance? It may be that that she thinks is too low, but that's something she really ought to take up with her mum.

I'd agree that meeting up to discuss what she needs and why would be a good way forward. My DH has also had conversations with his DD (17) about support to her post 18 - he will stop the child support to her mum for her once she's 18 and instead will pay direct to her to help support her through Uni, so if your DSD is thinking of Uni it might be a good time to have a similar conversation.

Losing it is still available in some areas,my dd gets it. Notharriet ema is education maintenance allowance,its upto 30.00 a week.

Personally speaking I worked from 14 to 18 ... am not sure how legal it was even back in the day and I know restrictions re: children working have been tightened up but I certainly didn't feel exploited - in fact I felt empowered as 'my' money enabled me to buy stuff my parents were unable or unwilling to buy for me such as make-up, clothes for the sake of it (rather than what was necessary) and so on. I've just worked it out and I used to work around 16 hours a week mostly at the weekend. It didn't interfere with studying but I accept that if the child in question struggles in any way with school/college work it might have an impact, if they need to do extra work - only you know if that is true.

Similarly my eldest worked P/T from 16, similar hours - so they could have a bit of financial freedom. I couldn't really subsidise them, or offer them much of an allowance/pocket money whatever you want to call it. I did fund essential stuff and would treat when I could but fair dos on them for seeking out work without being prompted instead of pressuring me.

Obviously ..... finding work does depend on the area you live in, transport links and so forth. Again, this is something you're better placed to comment on as you have the whole picture and we don't. It wasn't that long ago my eldest was working while studying and picked up work very quickly (in home counties). If you do feel there's a fair chance of her getting a P/T job, and this isn't hindered by living in a remote location or a need for additional study etc., then really in your shoes I'd want to see at least some attempt to find a job before I paid out for frivolous stuff.

However - as others have said upthread, I think your DH needs to find out exactly what she wants first and take it from there. I'd be inclined to help out with college costs (assuming you can of course) but would be less happy with money for the sake of it if she hadn't already tried to work out a way of getting this for herself (assuming it's realistic, as described before) and in view of the larger picture where she has no real relationship/communication with him unless he gives her money!

I appreciate it's very hard for so-called absent parents not to give in to such demands when the relationship is pretty crap in the hope giving them what they want will improve things - but I personally believe that simply rolling over rarely mends things when you have a very damaged relationship and runs the risk of more and more demands which the parent is then 'scared' not to comply with. It's basically emotional blackmail - even if there is a history behind it and whilst it may be a way of a confused teen 'proving' that their dad loves them, we all know it's not as simple as that and that a line should be drawn somewhere or else where does it stop ? A kid who's perpetually given what they want but gives nothing back in return - such as courtesy, or their time - won't learn the value of money, probably won't respect that parent deep down because they're such an easy touch and will never have any incentive to do things for themselves.

I think he needs to speak to her and take the approach that he will 'think about' what she's asked and come back to her asap when he's had a chance to digest it all and work out what's fair and what's affordable - regardless of any tantrums she might throw. 'Please don't strop or I'll be inclined to say no straightaway' would probably be the most effective response to that! You still don't know what she wants and whatever it is needs to be looked at in the wider context taking into account how she can help herself as much as possible too. Of course, you were teenagers once too, so should have a pretty good idea what's fair for her to ask for and what's taking advantage/being entitled.

Until you know what she wants, it's all supposition ...... but one thing occurred to me and that could be that over and above what you decide is fair and reasonable (such as travel costs, college books and materials, a small allowance for college clothes or whatever) if she wanted more just to have in her pocket then maybe she could earn it by doing jobs for you ? Don't know how feasible this is - how close you live for example, or whether you have any tasks she could do regularly which would actually benefit you ..... but if, say, she washed the car, mowed the lawn, walked the dog 3 times a week, did ironing etc., you might free up time for yourselves, she'd get more money to spend as she wished and if she was round yours it'd be a small, no-pressure opportunity for hers and DH's relationship to start to repair.

Anyway, he needs to find out the nitty gritty and take a deep breath before responding so he can figure out the 'best way of achieving what she wants'. He should say something like that to her because it's not a straight rejection but neither is it him rolling over - of course 'the best way' may also include her having to make an input as well.

I've been involved in and come out of the other end of an almost identical situation. I've been on the receiving end of the 16 year old "tantrums" over money myself and had all the instant button pressed knee jerk shouty responses too. And the tears and buckets of wine and frustration. And been a bystander watching another similar situation between a girl and her Dad.

Any contact between them is a relationship. Forget how it "should" be, work with what you have and that's a girl who has asked to meet her Dad.

That's great if he has recognised that he reacts (so understandable). Once I got that I did it it enabled me to hold myself in check. Mostly! They are bloody good at instinctively knowing what buttons to press and from nowhere, and about a completely different issue!

So IME first step is keep it simple - meet and listen to her. And just that.

Thank you so much for taking the time to post that catsmother. I tend to agree with all of it.

She doesn't live in a remote location - she lives in a "new town" with lots of shops and retail parks, about 20 minutes on the bus from a very large town and is there most weekends with friends so it must be fairly easy to reach ;)

I don't know much if anything about the job market around here for teenagers other than what this lad at work has told me which is that it's easy as long as you're not too fussy. ie. you might be stacking shelves in tesco.

Whens he was staying with us we talked about chores for pocket money as she got older, but she stopped coming and proved herself untrustworthy through stealing from me and my DD so I'm afraid that sadly I wouldn't have her in the house doing ironing etc. while we were out. She wouldn't come round if we were in.

I think you are all right that he needs to see what it is she wants. And he will do. I have a habit of trying to preempt things which I've developed over time as a form of damage limitation where my DSD is concerned.