DSD and DSS saying they don't want to come anymore - help please

[impatienceisavirtue]

Sorry very long.

Horrific weekend last time with DSD and DSS. One of the most stressful weekends I've had in a while - especially bearing in mind I'd just had an early MC. They were rude, very badly behaved, trashed the house, ungrateful and awful to my kids. We actually had to go home in the middle of a trip out for something we needed urgently for the next day as they were so badly behaved. I am not ashamed to say I was glad to see the back of them. I can only imagine how distressing it was for DH.

His exw continues to reinforce this behaviour and thinks it's funny. She actively tries to encourage disney parenting by him but this obviously isn't in anyone's best interests, for her either. He is great with them but there is only so much we can do at the moment when every step forward is erased as soon as they go home.

Anyway. It turns out DSD had been using the home phone to ring her mum many times a day to tell her how awful it was (...not mentioning that she was getting told off because of her horrendous behaviour). Also without asking permission to use the phone.

When we dropped them off EXW went ballistic and called DH unfairly all the names under the sun for not pandering.

Following on from that the next day he received a call to say that they do not want to come to ours anymore. I think it is a mix of the kids trying to manipulate us to some degree - we beg them to come and then when they get there we wouldn't dare deign to (rightly so) deal with their behaviour, and his EXW actively encouraging them to say this to upset DH.

Total minefield and I really could do with some honest answers. What do we do? They would normally come up this Friday. I have said I think we should say that is fine, we would have liked them to come but it is their choice. EXW said he "needs to do something about it" and should basically call them and beg them to come. I think long term this is a mistake and that we need to hold our ground now, as hard as it is for him. EXW will look like an idiot if she has encouraged this and promised the kids that it will go their way and it doesn't, and she'll also be begging us to take them by the end of the week as she cadges them off all week in clubs so she doesn't have to deal with them.

I'm not trying to be horrible, I just think that it's the right thing to do or we'll be making things worse. For me it is unbearable at the moment when they are here. I'm exhausted by the time the weekend rolls around, v stressful job, condition that causes total exhaustion, the upset of the MC, and various other things. I actually dread the stress. But they are just children at the end of the day and I adore DH and will stand by whatever he wants to do.

BTW I am nice to the children and don't treat them differently to my own or make them feel excluded when they are here.

Any advice please?

I do think phone use is very tricky. When dsd was around 9-11, she would be fine all day and then just before bed she would ask to call her mum, we would always allow it but her mum would tell her how much she missed her and how lonely she was and a previously happy and content little girl cried herself to sleep every time.

We agonised over whether to disallow the calls but didn't because, you know, it's her mum. We did sometimes suggest she shouldn't because she'd get upset but she was So worried about mum that she'd always call. It was really hard.

Sorry - that's not all that relevant, it just brought it all back talking about phones!

Could he take them out for one day instead? Perhaps the day when your children are with their dad? He could use it as a chance to have a proper chat with them, and you could get some peace and a chance to heal a bit after the MC?

I wish people would stop assuming that all of this is because the DSCs don't get to see their dad/need time with their dad on their own. The OP has said that all of this happens on a regular basis.

Far more worrying is what the OP has said about how the alienation of these children from their father is encouraged by their mum. I realise we've only heard the OP's story, but this DOES happen. It can happen even in cases where the parent concerned doesn't have that openly as his/her intention, but believes that she is acting in the best interests of her children, and as a result doesn't support and encourage a positive relationship for the children with the NRP.

Insanity they may not have signed up for a weekend Dad, but this is the way life has panned out. You seem to be suggesting that the OP’s DH “help them through this” by totally pandering to them, and begging for visits. I think this approach is unwise. Surely this is the genesis of the dreaded Disney Parenting model??

'EXW said he "needs to do something about it" and should basically call them and beg them to come.'

That is what I was agreeing with Russianfudge.

I am sure the DCs pick up on the OP's 'dread' of them coming too. Not a nice situation for them to be in.

They will have much more respect later on for the DH and the OP for not giving up on them when they are behaving at their worst.

I wasn't suggesting anyone should give up on them, but I would draw the line at begging. How about making it clear they are welcome to visit, but that the choice is theirs?

They're not giving up on them - they're saying they love them and want them to come and that they can come any time they like.

Research suggest that by putting pressure on from the other side it is damaging to the children who already have a great emotional burden from one parent.

They may need a period of no contact during which they will feel calm and free, they'll come back to Dad eventually if he handles this properly. And the relationship will be meaningful

'It has happened before, she will be text/call her mum whilst she is here coming out with wildly different versions of reality.'

Remember that an adult's version of 'reality' may be very different from a child's perception who find a lot of things unfair especially preteens and teens and these DC will be very sensitive due to the effects of their parent's split.

I don't know if you've posted this but how long have you been with DH? What age were the DCs when you got together? Does his ex-wife have a reason, even just in her own mind, to make things difficult?

I agree, they do have a very different idea about rules and what they should and shouldn't be told off for

But adults shouldn't pander to that. We need to enforce the rules and boundaries even when the kids don't like it. If the kids are allowed to run away when they don't like the rules then they're being done a huge disservice

'EXW said he "needs to do something about it" and should basically call them and beg them to come.'

'They will have much more respect later on for the DH and the OP for not giving up on them when they are behaving at their worst.'

I totally disagree with both of these statements, and with Insanityandbeyond!

The DSCs will never have respect for their dad if he just lets them run rings around him, if they disrespect him and his home and they are never brought to task. They will simply learn that this behaviour is ok, and it is all right to treat their dad like this. Instead, I suggest that they will have respect for their dad if he continues to put in place appropriate boundaries for behaviour, alongside talking to them about WHY they are behaving like this. It could be simply because they CAN, it could be because there is some underlying unhappiness, it could be because their mum has told them it is ok to do this. The conversations to get to the bottom of this must, IMO, go hand in hand with fair and consistent consequences for the behaviour.

The OP has NEVER on this thread suggested that she or her DH want to give up on these children. Actually I think to give in to the demands to Disney parent them would be giving up. Giving up on sensible parenting with age-appropriate boundaries would not be good for the children in the long run. Treating them as special and different to the other children in the household would also not be good for them - if these behaviours aren't dealt with, the children will become accustomed to obtaining what they want by manipulation.

It is irrelevant whether the ex-W has a "reason" to make things difficult. There can be no "reason" which justifies alienating children from their father, other than abuse etc. i.e. situations where to send the children would put them in danger.

I speak as someone whose children live between 2 houses, and with their dad for more than EOW. His DW was the OW in our marriage, and the split was horrific, but this is IRRELEVANT to the children's wellbeing and their relationship with their dad. My anger (not that there is any any more) is not my children's issue, it is mine, and it should never be allowed to affect their relationship with him.

If the children have issues with some of the rules at their dad's house, then the right person to raise those issues with is their dad. NOT their mum, over a telephone.

Excellent post, Shoppingfrenzy

I stopped going to my dads at 14, just wanted to be at home with friends. Plus I felt he just didn't know me as I was changing so much and would have appreciated some 1 on 1. Maybe your dh could do this on his own with them

Very good post shopping I agree and with regards to the last bit it was always a pet hate of mine even when DCs are in the same house as both their parents when they would run from one to the other to get the result they wanted. mine learned at a very young age that if mummy says no there is no point running to daddy and vice versa. I told my DGCs off the other day for running to their DGF after I said they couldn't play with something (that was mine incidentally) and asking him. They too will learn , at least in my house , that this is a non starter.
I'm beggared to think why this should be any different for SCs - just because their other parent happens to be on the end of a phone.

Excellent post shopping!!!

Cheesybadger that's really sad about you and your dad. The dad in this scenario is spending one on one time though. What I find sad is that we all feel that way about our dad's as we grow up - that they don't understand us. But when your dad lives with you you have no choice but to muddle through.

Speaking only from my perspective of having been a step child (and seeing my dad only two or three times a year) I think your DH should take them out, on his own for the day.

I never felt comfortable in my dad and SM's house, it never felt like my home, I was always on edge and on 'visitor manners'. I hated never seeing my dad on his own, my SM was always around, I never had any father-daughter time. It was miserable. Perhaps the behaviour would improve if they got to spend some time on their own with their dad.

Cheesy I'd also stopped having any sort of 'planned' access visits with my Dad by the time I was 14. We still had a perfectly good relationship, but I was too old for intense, 1-2-1 "Daddy time" by then. I only had eyes for Martin Kemp.

I always viewed fixed access as something for much younger children. And my views haven't changed.

Thank you for all the replies.

I have said many times that he does have one on one time with them - people keep suggesting this and I appreciate it but this already happens and always have, as I keep saying.

I said I dread the stress not the children. I dread it when my own kids are being particularly difficult too! I don't think there is anything abnormal about that.

We're after a long term solution here - definitely not giving up on them. I just can't see that begging them etc is healthy or a long term solution.

As an aside - I also can't help but think about the fact that having special rules and letting them get away with whatever would also be confusing for my kids - they are also part of the equation as well.

I should clarify I am definitely not the OW. They split up a long time ago. In fact her partner is the OM. She has no reason to be angry with him, he had behaved since in a very dignified manner and is a good father.

By different reality - I mean for instance, DSS and DSD were in the back of the car. DSD pulled her legs up and was kicked DSS in the chest. On the motorway. She refused to stop when DH told her (I was not in the car) and DSS was going mad. DH reached behind as best as he could and tried to stop her - she was really hurting DSS and would not stop.

She text her mum and told her that DH had HIT her. When we found out (read - EXW went mad) and admitted she was totally lying. EXW didn't even bother asking DH what had happened and when EXW spoke to DSS about it he told her what had really happened as well. ANd still she was abusive to DH.

Thank you for the link - what I have read through quickly now is REALLY helpful - I've sent it to DH and will look properly when I'm home

I agree Petal, I think it's very natural to have a more relaxed approach as they get older. Maybe for op that is where this will lead.

Once they don't need to be supervised and cared for as such they should really have flexible contact. Although because this can have an impact on CSA payments, one or both parents may have a vested interest in pushing for a rota

My dsd now visits again after a period of alienation. She comes as and when I suppose, a bit like the way we visit out parents as adults.

Except that she can't really come when she likes because mum very much still pulls her strings.

The CSA implications put a whole different slant on things - it makes for a very artificial situation if a child has to spend a specific amount of time in one place each week, just to keep the figures straight ......

It really was so so helpful. In someways it makes things worse because you will realise what mum is doing and can't stop her. The times I wanted to send her the link to Karen Woodalls blog! But as they say, you should never enter in to a battle of wits with the unarmed!

What you can do though is learn how to manage the situation in a proactive and caring way, with empathy and understanding.

Frogs gets the credit for this one as she sent the link to me in the first place.

DH has been through alienation and come out the other side, whilst we live in constant fear that it could happen again at any time, we are prepared now and in all honesty (though at one point it nearly destroyed us!) our relationship is a lot stronger and his relationship with his dd is meaningful and respectful (mostly!!)

She now says she can't believe what she put him through and said she can't remember why she ever thought he was bad. She said she heard her mums words, and how upset her mum was and just had blind faith in her mum telling the truth. She wanted her dad to hurt and she wanted to be loyal to her mum and there was so much conflict and emotion around her visits here that she just had to cut all ties for a while and be with mum.

She is sadly a very messed up little girl (now 15) and will always have isshoos because of the terrible way both of her parents managed their divorce. But, things are getting better all the time.

She even says now that she'd rather live here and has all the same opinions as her dad and I about her mum without either of us ever having to have said a word!

Yup! It really is pathetic isn't it. If both parents are sensible I think either 50/50 and no maintenance, or an agreement for each party to be responsible for buying x, y, z according to income etc is much more sensible

Especially when the child is fully aware of the "cost" of an overnight stay at dad's

I have heard her mum say over the phone "you can't stay there tonight because that will take your dad's payments in to the next threshold and you know in not working at the moment"

And we aren't rigid at all on times/dates for contact. If it doesn't suit them because of social commitments of course we accomodate that and it's not a big deal. We're very flexible. It has been made very clear they have said they don't want to come as a direct result of the fact they were told off etc quite a bit last time as their behaviour was so awful and to be frank dangerous to them and others. Definitely not a "getting older" thing though I know this is often the case.

russian so glad that things are improving for you guys

Re maintenance - I know nobody was saying it is an issue in our case - but it really isn't. We pay well over what the CSA would enforce in any circumstances and this doesn't change regardless of, well, anything. Except when there are extra costs some month for whatever reason, we send extra. But it isn't based on the time we spend here

Yes I think it's not the case in your situation from what you've said. But this whole scenario may lead to a more relaxed approach to the rota in the end, and they'll just come and go.

Although that's not without it's annoyances (sayeth the woman staring down the barrel of a fourth full weekend with her teen step daughter)

Oh the whole things just such hard work isn't it.

Let's all have a drink