DSD and DSS saying they don't want to come anymore - help please

[impatienceisavirtue]

Sorry very long.

Horrific weekend last time with DSD and DSS. One of the most stressful weekends I've had in a while - especially bearing in mind I'd just had an early MC. They were rude, very badly behaved, trashed the house, ungrateful and awful to my kids. We actually had to go home in the middle of a trip out for something we needed urgently for the next day as they were so badly behaved. I am not ashamed to say I was glad to see the back of them. I can only imagine how distressing it was for DH.

His exw continues to reinforce this behaviour and thinks it's funny. She actively tries to encourage disney parenting by him but this obviously isn't in anyone's best interests, for her either. He is great with them but there is only so much we can do at the moment when every step forward is erased as soon as they go home.

Anyway. It turns out DSD had been using the home phone to ring her mum many times a day to tell her how awful it was (...not mentioning that she was getting told off because of her horrendous behaviour). Also without asking permission to use the phone.

When we dropped them off EXW went ballistic and called DH unfairly all the names under the sun for not pandering.

Following on from that the next day he received a call to say that they do not want to come to ours anymore. I think it is a mix of the kids trying to manipulate us to some degree - we beg them to come and then when they get there we wouldn't dare deign to (rightly so) deal with their behaviour, and his EXW actively encouraging them to say this to upset DH.

Total minefield and I really could do with some honest answers. What do we do? They would normally come up this Friday. I have said I think we should say that is fine, we would have liked them to come but it is their choice. EXW said he "needs to do something about it" and should basically call them and beg them to come. I think long term this is a mistake and that we need to hold our ground now, as hard as it is for him. EXW will look like an idiot if she has encouraged this and promised the kids that it will go their way and it doesn't, and she'll also be begging us to take them by the end of the week as she cadges them off all week in clubs so she doesn't have to deal with them.

I'm not trying to be horrible, I just think that it's the right thing to do or we'll be making things worse. For me it is unbearable at the moment when they are here. I'm exhausted by the time the weekend rolls around, v stressful job, condition that causes total exhaustion, the upset of the MC, and various other things. I actually dread the stress. But they are just children at the end of the day and I adore DH and will stand by whatever he wants to do.

BTW I am nice to the children and don't treat them differently to my own or make them feel excluded when they are here.

Any advice please?

If their behaviour is that bad then they have serious problems that need addressing in a different way to "being told off by DH".

op ignore the couple of posters who are trying to get you bite back.

It sounds a tough situation. I was a step child. I purposely used to run rings round my father because I could and I purposely set out to wind my step mother up because I could.

If my df and sm had managed to get a united front and both sang of the same hymn sheet, I think I would have been a lot happier.

I sort of never really felt part of family because I was treated differently. Step mother was never allowed to tell me off, df was a push over so I basically took the piss and caused a lot of arguments between them.

I would call their bluff.

" that's fine darling, as soon as you want to visit let us know, we will fetch you straight away, we love and mss you"

Kids need boundaries and stability.

I've pm'ed you op

Surely being told off by their father is a good start?

And if they are only in their fathers care for 2 days a week/fortnight there is a limit to what the OP and her DH can do. Trying to communicate with the mother and providing a consistent and stable home for them to stay in. Where the rules don't change, they are treated equally to there step-siblings and genuinely part of the OPs family for the weekend is a pretty good start.

Telling off is not always an appropriate response to bad behaviour, especially when it is extreme. TBH the DC sound very distressed indeed.

"Told off" is a fairly broad catch all. Of course he discusses it with them properly and we have tried repeatedly to get to the bottom of the issue.

They dont have much chance to behave like this at home because she puts them into clubs every day of the week and laughs about how that solve the issue and we should just ensure they are never in the same room.

They are being very rude at the moment, yes. A lot of that is their age and not helped by their mother reinforcing that this is ok (again that is not just supposition). Theyre not out drinking and stealing or anything like that, but it does need dealing with and I cant just be lax about it when there are consequences to some of their actions. I also think them getting away with everything here isnt helpful to their mother either. Regardless of how she does or does not support us, we always try and make things easier for her in that respect. I am often the voice of reason and I actually play devils advocate for her as I have a different view point being the resident parent to my DC and having been through it with my EXH.

If you have any suggestions without directing aggression towards me or insinuating that Im an awful SM when Im trying my best, that would actually be appreciated. Pointing out all the ways you think Im going wrong is not productive.

I honestly dont know what we can do. That does not mean I have given up, that is the reason for posting about the situation. When we talk it through with them (as said before) and things seem to improve it is undone whilst they are at home and were back at square one every weekend.

Does your DH spend much time alone with his DC when they are at your house for the weekend?

sorry i do not want to offend you but for example here again you have been very negative about their mother who 'puts them in clubs every day of the week' and so does not deal with their behaviour.
i dont know about the after school clubs there, but in my experience they were finished by 4.30. so what does it have to do with anything?
you say that their mother re-inforces their rudeness, as another example.
sorry but your whole tone is the lovely 'right' stepmother and the bad 'wrong 'mother.

Bonsoir - it can be a nightmare when the DSC are constantly phoning their mum up and 'telling tales' on their Dad. They are in their fathers care and it is up to him to discipline them as he sees fit.

Obviously if they want to speak about something in particular or tell her something that is fine but the OP has every right to be consulted before they use the phone - if that is a house rule then it must be followed, step child or not.

PM'd you OP.

Kaluki is right, IMO. It sounds as though these children are able to play their mum and dad off against eachother, by taking every small complaint to their mum, who listens, supports, agrees, and assists in the undermining of their dad.

OP, I have lots of sympathy, as we've been in this situation but with a more sensible mum, so my DSC learnt it wasn't worth it, and wouldn't have the desired effect.

If you and DP are clear and firm together that your boundaries are fair and consistent, then I don't see what you can do other than keep enforcing them. You may need to involve the DSC in more discussion as to what is "fair" I guess - we've found as the DSCs and DCs have grown older, more discussion is needed around house rules, rather than us just imposing them.

TBH, it sounds to me as though your DSCs are showing attention seeking behaviours. Hurting eachother and the other children around them is not acceptable. Whilst they need to be told off for showing these behaviours, what could be causing them to behave in this way? IMO, if their mum is reinforcing that they can't be reprimanded when at their dad's, and is encouraging them to believe that they should be given special treatment at his place (ie. treated better than the other children who are there), then it's no wonder they are acting out and pushing the boundaries - they are being given carte blanche to do this by their mum.

I can only go on what you have said of course, but it is entirely possible that your DSCs' mum's interventions are making this situation lots worse. If she has told DSCs to ring her for example if they are unhappy, then they will ring her to whinge and moan. If she listens and supports them without even asking their dad what is going on, then she is assisting and encouraging the manipulation.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm sure it is NOT disney parenting.

My kids and my DSCs would have to ask to use the house phone. And they wouldn't have a mobile at 10, either.

Why shouldn't the OP sound negative about the exW? It sounds like she has every reason to. And her stepkids aren't part of this conversation, actually.

OP, you and DH just have to carry on doing what you know is right, and what is best for your whole family, not pandering to one or two members.

I agree with everything Kaluki said.

I'd definitely call their bluff this weekend and tell them if they don't want to come that's fine. Definitely no begging!!!

Yes you're right to parent together on your own terms, as you say, you're a family.

Oh and I always had to ask to use the phone when I lived at home. In fact I'm in my 30's now and I'd still ask before using my parents' phone!!

Cigarettesandsmirnoff speaks s lot if sense.

I would take the "I am sad that we won't see you because you are my children and I love you, but I understand you are hurting and I will give you space. As soon as you are ready to come again, all you need do is call"

Have a good read of this karenwoodall.wordpress.com/

Unfortunately if mum isn't in the same page you have a lot of drama ahead of you but be thankful that your DH sounds like a good dad, who wants to do the right thing rather than the easy thing right now. Keep communicating and have the courage to know you've done nothing wrong in setting boundaries for all of your children. They crave this.

One of the main things my DH and I took away from the above link is that when children are in this situation they will push away and punish the parent they know will love them unconditionally and never leave them but whom they currently perceive to need the least ie. in this case the NRP.

Same old, same old MN - double standards and contradictions

For the OP - I suggest you become familiar with Karen Woodalls work on alienation (she has a fabulous blog) and prepare your DH for an estrangement from his DCs.

What you have described is textbook behaviour for DCs who are on that journey, and petty arguments over whether allowing your DSC to have free access to a telephone will change their behaviour really does miss the point.

It is going to take another generation or two for society to acknowledge and understand the psychological damage done when a DC experiences alienation from a parent - until then, much of the well meaning advice and criticism on forums like this will do further damage.

Thanks for all the thoughtful advice and support I really do appreciate it and actually feel better about it all now and have been given some good suggestions for a way forward.

DH is going to call them tonight and reiterate that wed like to see them and ask whether theyre coming or not. If they say no, hell say thats up to them and ask them if they want to talk about it or if there is anything they want to discuss in general that is bothering them etc. If they say yes, we wont make a big fuss, well just carry on as normal and hope that with consistency and time things will improve.

I also ordered stepmonster a while ago but havent had time to read it will find time. DH got Divorce Poison (I think its called) and Ill give him a nudge on that as both are suggested a lot on here.

FWIW Im really not painting myself out to be a saint and EXW out to be awful. Im stating the facts. The reference to clubs she herself has openly said thats why they are in every day of the week. By clubs I dont mean for an hour after school, I mean in the evenings as well for things like dance etc. She was even talking about putting them in for ones when we have them. I am just stating how things are I am not making wild assumptions. It came to light once that shed told DSS when he was discussing doing something with his dad in the future that they have been planning your Dad will have forgotten about you by then anyway. She admitted saying this. So Id say my comments regarding her are quite fair. I dont think she realises how harmful these kind of things are, or that she is doing it entirely maliciously Im sure she thinks its reasonable. But the fact remains that they arent good for the children. That isnt me making her out to be a bad person, thats how it is.

Thank you once again for all your replies

X-post with russian

Great minds frog

OP, in particular, posts like this one:

karenwoodall.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/when-children-reject-you-using-empathy-to-challenge-the-alienation-process/

Good luck.

Maybe they would like to spend time with their dad on their own? Suggest DH takes them out for the day if you find it hard to cope with them.

Maybe they play up because they are jealous of the time he spends with you and your DC and angry that their father is not living with them?

Perfectly understandable and reasonable for DCs of that age as they become more aware of their circumstances. No matter how long ago the breakup of their family happened.

You DH needs to help them through this by giving them as much time and love as they want.

They are testing him. His love for them.

I would suggest that he did 'beg' them to come actually.

They did not sign up for a 'weekend' dad. It was not their choice.

They ought to have their own mobiles? So since when has it become obligatory or unwritten rule for DCs over 9yrs old (presuming you arent suggesting even younger than the OPs DSC) to own their own personal mobile phone? Or does this 'rule' only apply to children whose parents live in separate homes?
Also the OP is in no way stopping her DSD contacting her mother immediately when she wants to , she has said she always lets her use it , just likes her to ask.
There is nothing wrong with keeping an eye on DCs step or otherwise , communication with the outside world. I think we need to know who and when they are phoning at that age. My DGD when aged 12 was given her first mobile and despite being monitored carefully by my son and his ex managed to acquire herself a 59 yr old male 'friend' in Macdonalds. He sent her a Bluetooth message originally I believe and pretended to be a young boy in there. He went in the loos eventually and sent my DGD an 'action shot' shall we say of his penis. He was tracked down and eventually prosecuted (the police took my DGDs mobile off her for months) but it could've been so much worse , had he for example managed to entice her into the toilets/followed her . Needless to say her younger sister (10) wont be getting a mobile any time soon , whether or not she ought to have one be damned !

What do you mean by begging? I think it's completely the wrong approach. He can he get across the "I love you and I want to see you" without begging. They will have no respect for him for begging.

I'm sure that op said further down that they get time on their own with their dad and she makes herself scarce quite often.

Insanity true it does affect DCs much more than we realise , never having either of their parents full time and it can manifest itself no doubt in many ways. But the OP has said that she does actually have her own DCs at their dads at weekend so the SCs are not 'sharing' their dad and also on top of that she goes out herself on top of that to give the DSC as much one to one time with their dad.

Sorry Russian x posts.